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WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - SL to return to 14 in 2019
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Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:36 pm  
bramleyrhino wrote:
Is the desire from fans for a 14 team league based on the desire to see a better competition, or based on the desire for their team to have a better chance of being in that competition?


SL clubs get a bigger slice of the TV money.

I wouldn't expand the league unless newcomers run an academy and reserves plus have an established relationship with local community clubs. Mind you that should apply to SL clubs already. If we can run an academy (and it was a condition of the RFL that our new owners ran one) then surely everyone in SL can? Salford?

As for reserves if Fax and Keighley can do it surely SL clubs can?
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Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:55 pm  
Madderzahatter wrote:
If anything, SL should be going down to 10 teams, not expanding. Not unless they're ditching promotion and relegation and breaking away from the Championship. There just isn't enough quality or money in the UK game to support 14 teams.


How many UK players will Toronto and Toulouse need ?

Let's face it, the desire to expand SL is not being driven by the wish to have Leigh and Fev back in SL, it's all about Toronto and to a lesser extent, Toulouse.

As for quality and money, IF we are to include any additional overseas clubs, the have to bring something to the party and not just be chasing a slice of the Sky cash.
Although their inclusion may theoretically add some "glamour" to the comp. it shouldnt even be considered unless there is something substantial being added to the "pot"
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I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls


Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.


Jamie Jones-Buchanan wrote:
"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:20 pm  
Bullseye wrote:
SL clubs get a bigger slice of the TV money.

I wouldn't expand the league unless newcomers run an academy and reserves plus have an established relationship with local community clubs. Mind you that should apply to SL clubs already. If we can run an academy (and it was a condition of the RFL that our new owners ran one) then surely everyone in SL can? Salford?

As for reserves if Fax and Keighley can do it surely SL clubs can?


Academies I agree with. I'm less inclined to suggest that reserve sides should be mandatory.

I personally would like to see Leeds run one, but even when the club did, it didn't really take the system seriously - instead preferring to farm players out on loan ('batches' of players have turned out for London, plenty were sent to championship clubs, and many in the early days of Super League turned out for Bramley).

I know that some people see reserve teams as a big part of player development, but there is one way to skin that particular cat.
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Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:41 pm  
bramleyrhino wrote:
There are signs that clubs are already looking to force the issue themselves - Wigan and Hull heading to Sydney for example, whereas Leeds have done a lot of work in the United States through their pre-season training camps and tie-up with Atlanta. At what point do those clubs, and clubs like those, decide that they're tired of running at the pace of the slowest man?

This is what is going to be the biggest turn in RL. When do those top clubs finally say to the smaller clubs "your lack of future trajectory through lack of money and/or ambition or lack of size of support is no longer good enough for us, we are capable of so much more as individual clubs and to take this sport on as a collective that we are leaving you behind...so, goodbye!"?

A sport, or any business, cannot keep being run from the weakest link up, just to sustain those weakest links. It has to come from the top down.
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Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:51 pm  
bramleyrhino wrote:
Academies I agree with. I'm less inclined to suggest that reserve sides should be mandatory.

I personally would like to see Leeds run one, but even when the club did, it didn't really take the system seriously - instead preferring to farm players out on loan ('batches' of players have turned out for London, plenty were sent to championship clubs, and many in the early days of Super League turned out for Bramley).

I know that some people see reserve teams as a big part of player development, but there is one way to skin that particular cat.


It should be mandatory to take reserves seriously. From discussing it with our coaching staff I'm totally sold on the idea. Far too many players are lost at 19 under the current system. There may be more than one way of developing players but the current system is clearly not working.

Farming them out to championship clubs is development on the cheap and de-values the game at that level when done under the current dual reg system.
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I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls


Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.


Jamie Jones-Buchanan wrote:
"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:35 pm  
Bullseye wrote:
It should be mandatory to take reserves seriously. From discussing it with our coaching staff I'm totally sold on the idea. Far too many players are lost at 19 under the current system. There may be more than one way of developing players but the current system is clearly not working.

Farming them out to championship clubs is development on the cheap and de-values the game at that level when done under the current dual reg system.


It depends how it's done. I'd suggest that Ben Jones-Bishop learnt a lot more in his year at Harlequins than he would have on the fringes of the Leeds team. In truth, a blend of reserv team rugby and a good loan system is probably the right balance but when Leeds' squad on the whole was on the younger side during the period of reserve grade leagues, there wasn't a huge difference between the A-team and U21s.

If the next few years start to show a trend that reserve teams generate better-developed players, then there's a discussion to be had but like I say, there's more than one way to achieve the right result.
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Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:09 pm  
Another interesting case from Leeds is Luke Gale. Left at around 18/19 he was never going to get in ahead of Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow in the foreseeable future around 2007 onwards. Had we been able to keep him until 23 he'd have spent up to 2011 just mostly playing reserve rugby against kids. Instead by 2011 he'd just finished his 3rd year as a SL starter at Quins. Had we had reserves at that time and kept Gale playing in that then he arguably wouldn't be a MOS or England international today.
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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES?????
£20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000.
The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover.

There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT:

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:03 pm  
bramleyrhino wrote:
It depends how it's done. I'd suggest that Ben Jones-Bishop learnt a lot more in his year at Harlequins than he would have on the fringes of the Leeds team. In truth, a blend of reserv team rugby and a good loan system is probably the right balance but when Leeds' squad on the whole was on the younger side during the period of reserve grade leagues, there wasn't a huge difference between the A-team and U21s.

If the next few years start to show a trend that reserve teams generate better-developed players, then there's a discussion to be had but like I say, there's more than one way to achieve the right result.


Very few NRL U20's players make the 1st grade and hardly any do it straight away, but instead earn their spurs in the 2nd tier QLND/NSW Cup competitions......if we are seriously returning to 14 sides then I would instigate a mandatory U20's and Reserve Grade competition and directly link participation to the amount of central funding a club receives.

Taking the game forward isn't Wigan v Hull in some NSW backwater, but Wigan U20's v Hull U20's before a reserve grade game followed by the main event played in an 80% full DW stadium and part of a weekend that has all 7 games shown on TV Live with at east one other triple-header broadcast.

Wakefield v Toronto in front of 5k fans in a crumbling stadium is going to be of little interest to any North American Broadcasters....at least any of note.
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Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:05 am  
Call Me God wrote:
Very few NRL U20's players make the 1st grade and hardly any do it straight away, but instead earn their spurs in the 2nd tier QLND/NSW Cup competitions......if we are seriously returning to 14 sides then I would instigate a mandatory U20's and Reserve Grade competition and directly link participation to the amount of central funding a club receives.

Taking the game forward isn't Wigan v Hull in some NSW backwater, but Wigan U20's v Hull U20's before a reserve grade game followed by the main event played in an 80% full DW stadium and part of a weekend that has all 7 games shown on TV Live with at east one other triple-header broadcast.

Wakefield v Toronto in front of 5k fans in a crumbling stadium is going to be of little interest to any North American Broadcasters....at least any of note.

Agreed, however you're in la-la land if you think there will be even a few hundred fans for the first game!
What actual % of that 80% are going to turn up at 4:00pm on a Thursday/Friday afternoon to watch an u20s game, how many of that 80% are going to rock up at 5:45pm, how about if that is on a freezing cold afternoon, how many are going to not bother because they can't bring their kids at that time or are simply still at work/have other commitments and how many would want to sit through 2 or even 2 matches concurrently when the perception is that those games are just the lesser teams. Even when it's virtually free you don't see more than a handful of fans watching the academy/reserve matches.
okay in the summer/warmer months on a Sunday you might get more take up but imagining that people will rock up in their droves to watch 3 matches concurrently and in significant numbers is utterly ridiculous. It doesn't even work when you give tickets away at £10 and there are 6 SL teams playing one after another!
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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES?????
£20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000.
The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover.

There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT:

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:09 am  
knockersbumpMKII wrote:
Agreed, however you're in la-la land if you think there will be even a few hundred fans for the first game!

it's not about the spectators......I've sat at Mt Smart with maybe 30 others watching the u20's and at best, 1,000 for the start of the vulcans......but the kids coming through get games, get time with their senior players.....and get better
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