Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:48 am  

Hi Cruncher. Having read your post again maybe I need to clarify what I mean by unnecessarily negative.

You mention Williams' and Tautai's form dropping off after they signed new deals. Let's start with Williams. His drop off in form could equally be said to coincide with the injury crisis. In fact I believe you have said yourself that, if anything, he was guilty of 'trying too hard'. Don't you think it overly negative, even disingenuous, then to suggest it somehow had something to do with his pay packet? Even if you want to press that line, do you not think it equally probable that it was an adverse effect of the new responsibility on what is, after all, a young half still learning his trade that accounted for the drop off rather than something wrong with his attitude? Do you seriously think, in a world cup season, that he would deliberately play himself out if contention?

Tautai: Started the season brilliantly and went off the boil once he'd signed his new contract. Or...
Started the season brilliantly and went off the boil once our pack had been shorn of two starting props, had JT who had been eamarked as a middle (sorry Itchy!) shunted around the park, had O'Loughlin, who had been expected to take a stint at prop unable to move from loose due to injuries across the park, had one of our young guns (Bretherton) all but disappear, had another (Navarette) farmed out to another team, was still. playing without our (then) first choice hooker and had virtually every member of the pack missing for large parts of the season. That's before we even get to the fact that the whole team was suffering a general malaise! Take your pick as to the likely reason for his less than stellar form. Again, I know which is more likely

TL has publicly admitted his form was poor last season. It was mentioned in Radlinski's recent piece in Wigan today. Again I can see no real reason for suggesting he hasn't. Further, his comments about it not being the same as the last time he was here are no more or no less than everyone on here is saying. Why is that put forward as a negative? We keep saying on this forum that we want honesty from the club. Maybe we only want it when it gives us something else to moan about?

As for the mutterings of Sam at 6: these haven't come from the club. They are forum talk. The most the club has said is that they are looking at all combinations. The rest is speculation. What's more, the fact that he says he prefers fullback doesn't even mean that is where he'll end up playing! We still don't know. Again why is a player stating his preferred position a negative? Because it's not what we want to hear? No one seemed to mind when TL said he prefers playing hooker. I wonder why?

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:02 am  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

Good to hear, however on his blog he said he was in contact with NZ Warriors and there was 'no room at the inn'. Maybe things have changed.

Good to see things have changed! From a typically comedic video on his twitter, Gels revealed his off to the NZW.

Pleased to see he's found himself a club.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:06 am  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

Good to see things have changed! From a typically comedic video on his twitter, Gels revealed his off to the NZW.

Pleased to see he's found himself a club.

Imagine that

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:08 am  

The Whiffy Kipper wrote:

Imagine that

No need to imagine, seems reality.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:54 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Hi Cruncher. Having read your post again maybe I need to clarify what I mean by unnecessarily negative.

You mention Williams' and Tautai's form dropping off after they signed new deals. Let's start with Williams. His drop off in form could equally be said to coincide with the injury crisis. In fact I believe you have said yourself that, if anything, he was guilty of 'trying too hard'. Don't you think it overly negative, even disingenuous, then to suggest it somehow had something to do with his pay packet? Even if you want to press that line, do you not think it equally probable that it was an adverse effect of the new responsibility on what is, after all, a young half still learning his trade that accounted for the drop off rather than something wrong with his attitude? Do you seriously think, in a world cup season, that he would deliberately play himself out if contention?

Tautai: Started the season brilliantly and went off the boil once he'd signed his new contract. Or...
Started the season brilliantly and went off the boil once our pack had been shorn of two starting props, had JT who had been eamarked as a middle (sorry Itchy!) shunted around the park, had O'Loughlin, who had been expected to take a stint at prop unable to move from loose due to injuries across the park, had one of our young guns (Bretherton) all but disappear, had another (Navarette) farmed out to another team, was still. playing without our (then) first choice hooker and had virtually every member of the pack missing for large parts of the season. That's before we even get to the fact that the whole team was suffering a general malaise! Take your pick as to the likely reason for his less than stellar form. Again, I know which is more likely

TL has publicly admitted his form was poor last season. It was mentioned in Radlinski's recent piece in Wigan today. Again I can see no real reason for suggesting he hasn't. Further, his comments about it not being the same as the last time he was here are no more or no less than everyone on here is saying. Why is that put forward as a negative? We keep saying on this forum that we want honesty from the club. Maybe we only want it when it gives us something else to moan about?

As for the mutterings of Sam at 6: these haven't come from the club. They are forum talk. The most the club has said is that they are looking at all combinations. The rest is speculation. What's more, the fact that he says he prefers fullback doesn't even mean that is where he'll end up playing! We still don't know. Again why is a player stating his preferred position a negative? Because it's not what we want to hear? No one seemed to mind when TL said he prefers playing hooker. I wonder why?

Let's hope you're right and that all is actually well.

We wait with baited breath.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:15 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Hi Cruncher. Having read your post again maybe I need to clarify what I mean by unnecessarily negative.

You mention Williams' and Tautai's form dropping off after they signed new deals. Let's start with Williams. His drop off in form could equally be said to coincide with the injury crisis. In fact I believe you have said yourself that, if anything, he was guilty of 'trying too hard'. Don't you think it overly negative, even disingenuous, then to suggest it somehow had something to do with his pay packet? Even if you want to press that line, do you not think it equally probable that it was an adverse effect of the new responsibility on what is, after all, a young half still learning his trade that accounted for the drop off rather than something wrong with his attitude? Do you seriously think, in a world cup season, that he would deliberately play himself out if contention?

Tautai: Started the season brilliantly and went off the boil once he'd signed his new contract. Or...
Started the season brilliantly and went off the boil once our pack had been shorn of two starting props, had JT who had been eamarked as a middle (sorry Itchy!) shunted around the park, had O'Loughlin, who had been expected to take a stint at prop unable to move from loose due to injuries across the park, had one of our young guns (Bretherton) all but disappear, had another (Navarette) farmed out to another team, was still. playing without our (then) first choice hooker and had virtually every member of the pack missing for large parts of the season. That's before we even get to the fact that the whole team was suffering a general malaise! Take your pick as to the likely reason for his less than stellar form. Again, I know which is more likely

TL has publicly admitted his form was poor last season. It was mentioned in Radlinski's recent piece in Wigan today. Again I can see no real reason for suggesting he hasn't. Further, his comments about it not being the same as the last time he was here are no more or no less than everyone on here is saying. Why is that put forward as a negative? We keep saying on this forum that we want honesty from the club. Maybe we only want it when it gives us something else to moan about?

As for the mutterings of Sam at 6: these haven't come from the club. They are forum talk. The most the club has said is that they are looking at all combinations. The rest is speculation. What's more, the fact that he says he prefers fullback doesn't even mean that is where he'll end up playing! We still don't know. Again why is a player stating his preferred position a negative? Because it's not what we want to hear? No one seemed to mind when TL said he prefers playing hooker. I wonder why?

I disagree with your views on TT and Williams. we were struggling with injuries well before they signed their contracts. it just so happened that TT was performing well in an injury hit side, earned a new contract and then "coincidentally" dropped off form-wise. or in other words, give me more money so I don't bugger off now i'm playing well. GW was given a new contract because of an offer coming in for him, fair enough, but again it had little benefit to us or him. now we have heard what Kris in the papers recently, if anything this has contributed to our lack of ability to sign any new players too - he has basically admitted we can't sign anyone because we are paying all of our kids more than they should be on, just to keep them at the club. if MM hadn't left, would this have meant we were over the cap even?!

i'd agree as much as by saying that the injury crisis we endured WAS a factor in the form of TT and GW amongst others but it wasn't the reason. and as for GW being a young HB, yes I agree but he has had 2 full seasons with us in the first team and if the club feel he is deserving of a marquee signature to retain his services then I fully expect the club to be working to bring that out of him too which they do not appear to be.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:18 am  

WiganBurt wrote:

I disagree with your views on TT and Williams. we were struggling with injuries well before they signed their contracts. it just so happened that TT was performing well in an injury hit side, earned a new contract and then "coincidentally" dropped off form-wise. or in other words, give me more money so I don't bugger off now i'm playing well. GW was given a new contract because of an offer coming in for him, fair enough, but again it had little benefit to us or him. now we have heard what Kris in the papers recently, if anything this has contributed to our lack of ability to sign any new players too - he has basically admitted we can't sign anyone because we are paying all of our kids more than they should be on, just to keep them at the club. if MM hadn't left, would this have meant we were over the cap even?!

i'd agree as much as by saying that the injury crisis we endured WAS a factor in the form of TT and GW amongst others but it wasn't the reason. and as for GW being a young HB, yes I agree but he has had 2 full seasons with us in the first team and if the club feel he is deserving of a marquee signature to retain his services then I fully expect the club to be working to bring that out of him too which they do not appear to be.

For all that George Williams undoubtedly has talent, he really has an awful lot to do this season. For whatever reason, he was bang-average last year, but maybe the humiliation of being taken to Aus in the World Cup and then barely used will be the kick up the backside he needs.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:41 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

How about 'ineffective' Itchy? Is it really so hard to find an alternative word? It took me about a nanosecond to think of that one.

As to your points; I agree with some and I disagree with some. "A good big un will always beat a good little un' is another of those regurgitated catch all phrases that actually doesn't hold water. A good little un will always be beaten by a BETTER big un, but then the reverse is equally true. Every one of those catch alls has an opposite, equally often quoted, phrase to counter it. That's why I think they're meaningless. I'll offer up 'it's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog' to counter your 'big un' and illustrate the point.

As a point for discussion, and to continue your 'powderpuff' theory, could you tell me, individually, which of our forwards you consider not aggressive enough? Particularly in light of opposition fans insistence that our pack are thugs and play to bully the opposition, more often than not overstepping what is acceptable. Also in light of the fact that pretty much this same pack had taken out numerous trophies in recent seasons.

I understand and share the frustrations of last season and, to a lesser degree, previous seasons. But to level the blame at a 'powderpuff' pack is, in my opinion, both wrong and lazy. In fact, injuries aside, I think it's far more the case that unforced errors and needless penalties are to blame. Address that and, as the saying goes, the rest will follow.

Cruncher: see above. Hope this addresses my thoughts re: your post too. I agree with much of what you say. I think there are some unnecessarily negative takes on things but that seems par for the course on here these days.

Not sure why powderpuff stops you sleeping at night but if it makes you happy I will go along with ineffective. That took me an age but maybe I'm just an owd doderer

With your dog analogy I will have my aggressive Staffordshire you can have your aggressive Jack Russell.

The pack I feel is ineffective not just because of lack of aggression but I will pick that up shortly.

Players with lack aggression for me as follows in no particular order are
FPN - maybe he just cant be arsed but last season he was next to useless
JT - I genuinely don't think he would know what to do if an opposing player actually chinned him when he runs in if a scuffle breaks out.
Flower - just hasn't been the same since 2014
Bretherton - cant recall a prop running with such a low intensity for many years with probably the exception of Mossop. His running style is poor so maybe with some development in that area this could be improved upon.
TT - never see him dominate anyone.
I think back to night versus Wire a year or two ago when Williams got chinned whilst prone on the floor - I nearly died of shame when not one Wigan player went in to sort the Wire player out.
I want the opposition fans to hate our forwards because they are so aggressive. I think they hate them presently because we hold down and wrestle wringing out a second or two of delaying play i.e. giving away the needless penalties you state.

Where the pack also is ineffective is in stamina/fitness. FPN I don't think did more than 18 minutes in a stint. Clubb is a player hard not to like however, his stamina levels are I feel questionable. This wasn't just last season but he seems incapable of doing more than 20 minutes a stint. Flower also is blowing out his arris after 15 to 20 minutes. We don't appear to have 1 prop who can and will do more than 20 minutes which I find quite amazing when you consider how much work our backs do in running out the ball particularly in our own half.

The pack is just too small to consistently dominate the opposition. I don't think we have a genuinely big guy in the pack. Last season at times we had Farrell, Bateman & Isa on the field at the same time i.e. 60% of our "grunt" weighing less than 14st. Just too damn small. What particularly irritates me on the size aspect was that after the Roosters gave us a good hiding IL,KR & SW all stated we were "too" small and that had to be addressed in the future - I am still waiting along with the wait for someone who can kick.

Maybe just maybe SW will let the "hounds" loose from the start of the season and the pack will look to dominate from the kick off like we did a few years back. Not sure if that in itself would be enough but hells bells it would be a lot better than some of the dross we saw last year.

By the way Phuzzy I don't mind you having different views even directly opposing views but please don't call me lazy. I am very passionate about the club and that passion can and does run into frustration when I think as a club we are doing things poorly. I have very strong views but will always listen and discuss opposing views to the extent if I am wrong I will hold my hands up and say that I am wrong. With regards the pack I just want one that acts like a pack and if players like FPN don't really want to be here then don't play him. FPN by the way looks pretty fit when I saw him on Wigan TV so if he needs a good season to enable to get him back to Australia then I will take that.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:52 pm  

I'd be very surprised if any of Farrell, Bateman or Isa are under 14 stone. I'm 15 stone and I'm certainly not as muscular as they are.

I found online that George Burgess is 120KG. Obviously he's a monster but are Farrell, Bateman and Isa really 30KG less?

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:04 pm  

secondstanza wrote:

I'd be very surprised if any of Farrell, Bateman or Isa are under 14 stone. I'm 15 stone and I'm certainly not as muscular as they are.

I found online that George Burgess is 120KG. Obviously he's a monster but are Farrell, Bateman and Isa really 30KG less?

I think a lot of the stated stats are made up. For example, I'm 6'2 and a bit taller than Joe Burgess, who is supposedly 6'5.