Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:40 am  

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/aug/31/benefit-fraud-claims-evil-twin The Minister for Welfare Reform claims that "£1.2billion was lost in benefit fraud in the past year" and then in a press release the Benefits Agency go on to detail some examples of ridiculous claims that their investigators uncovered. Which is good news. On the other hand, and with a cynical hat on, how do we know that the £1.2billion figure is accurate or anywhere near even a good guess, they are not saying that they have recouped £1.2b in fraudulent claims last year only that it is their belief that £1.2b was claimed fraudulently. Which begs the question, is that a guess or do they know for certain that £1.2b worth of claims were ALL fraudulent ? Which then begs the question, why did they pay the money out if they know that those claims are fraudulent. Nice attempt at propaganda which conjures up a figure without explaining where that figure comes from or how it was calculated or estimated, then assures the populace that their investigators are using hi-tech methods to catch these fraudsters (which suggests that they are not known to the authorities yet), and that "Hard working taxpayers are losing this outrageous amount of money" thus turning the spotlight again to anyone who is claiming a benefit of any sort as a drain on "hard working taxpayers", demonising the poor and making martyrs of all of us who are "hard working taxpayers" despite the fact that some "hard working taxpayers" might also be benefit claimants, a fact that Ministers are always reluctant to admit. Its a non-story, no evidence offered, no results mentioned, some extreme and ridiculous stories quoted as if ALL fraud is thus, and the wrap at the end assuring everyone that they are on the case although they can't offer any cast iron guarantees of this yet and probably won't follow up the story in six months time to re-re-assure us that they have now caught "xxxx amount" of fraudsters - its a stand-alone good news story fed to a compliant press designed purely to increase ratings and divert attention from the fact that in work benefits are cut to almost nil now and millions of families are struggling as a result.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/aug/31/benefit-fraud-claims-evil-twin The Minister for Welfare Reform claims that "£1.2billion was lost in benefit fraud in the past year" and then in a press release the Benefits Agency go on to detail some examples of ridiculous claims that their investigators uncovered. Which is good news. On the other hand, and with a cynical hat on, how do we know that the £1.2billion figure is accurate or anywhere near even a good guess, they are not saying that they have recouped £1.2b in fraudulent claims last year only that it is their belief that £1.2b was claimed fraudulently. Which begs the question, is that a guess or do they know for certain that £1.2b worth of claims were ALL fraudulent ? Which then begs the question, why did they pay the money out if they know that those claims are fraudulent. Nice attempt at propaganda which conjures up a figure without explaining where that figure comes from or how it was calculated or estimated, then assures the populace that their investigators are using hi-tech methods to catch these fraudsters (which suggests that they are not known to the authorities yet), and that "Hard working taxpayers are losing this outrageous amount of money" thus turning the spotlight again to anyone who is claiming a benefit of any sort as a drain on "hard working taxpayers", demonising the poor and making martyrs of all of us who are "hard working taxpayers" despite the fact that some "hard working taxpayers" might also be benefit claimants, a fact that Ministers are always reluctant to admit. Its a non-story, no evidence offered, no results mentioned, some extreme and ridiculous stories quoted as if ALL fraud is thus, and the wrap at the end assuring everyone that they are on the case although they can't offer any cast iron guarantees of this yet and probably won't follow up the story in six months time to re-re-assure us that they have now caught "xxxx amount" of fraudsters - its a stand-alone good news story fed to a compliant press designed purely to increase ratings and divert attention from the fact that in work benefits are cut to almost nil now and millions of families are struggling as a result.

Re: Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:52 pm  

This is EXACTLY the tactic used by the governemnt and their paymaster the motor insurance industry in their assault on compensation claims, to line the pockets of insurance companies. They whinge on about how they pay out all this money on fraudulent claims but never once explain WHY they would do that.

Re: Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:28 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

This is EXACTLY the tactic used by the governemnt and their paymaster the motor insurance industry in their assault on compensation claims, to line the pockets of insurance companies. They whinge on about how they pay out all this money on fraudulent claims but never once explain WHY they would do that.

I know, they can even put a figure on the amount of money that they rather stupidly paid out on claims and claimants that they KNEW were fraudulent - they probably have an audit code that they use when entering the transaction into the accounting system just so that the accountants can keep a tab on the numbers at the end of the year.

Then they have to pay another company to pursue the debt.

Then they tell us how good they are at getting our money back.

Re: Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:50 pm  

The last time I read any stats on benefit fraud, the true figure was way below the headline figure.
The rest was benefit awarded in error.
I'm wondering if the same is true for this stat of £1.2bn ?

Re: Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:49 pm  

El Barbudo wrote: The last time I read any stats on benefit fraud, the true figure was way below the headline figure. The rest was benefit awarded in error. I'm wondering if the same is true for this stat of £1.2bn ? This may help to put things into perspective: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 090513.pdf Fraud The percentage overpaid due to fraud in the preliminary 2012/13 estimate is the same as the 2011/12 estimate, 0.7%. However, this is a slight decrease compared to the 2010/11 estimate, 0.8%. The monetary value of fraud overpayments in the preliminary 2012/13 estimates is the same as those in the 2011/12 and 2010/11 estimates, £1.2bn £1.2 billion is 0.7%. So thats less than 1% of people who claim benefit are claiming fraudulently, they estimate. But hey, £1.2 billion sounds good doesn't it? They also don't mention in the press 0.6% or £0.9 billion is underpaid due to claimant error or 0.3%/£0.5billion underpaid due to official error: Preliminary estimates of Fraud and Error by type of error in 2012/13 0.7%, or £1.2bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to fraud; 0.9%, or £1.6bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to claimant error; 0.4%, or £0.7bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to official error. 0.6%, or £0.9bn, of total benefit expenditure is underpaid due to claimant error; 0.3%, or £0.5bn, of total benefit expenditure is underpaid due to official error. So the total margin of error and fraud is 1.1% of the total benefit bill. But its £ signs and not %'s that matter to this government. Or if you are IDS you make it up as you go along. Propaganda at its best. If you read carefully you will notice the figures are exactly the same (with a small decrease in fraud) as 2010/11 and 2011/12, therefore nothing has changed for 3 years, fraud is not on the increase as this government would have you believe.

El Barbudo wrote: The last time I read any stats on benefit fraud, the true figure was way below the headline figure. The rest was benefit awarded in error. I'm wondering if the same is true for this stat of £1.2bn ? This may help to put things into perspective: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 090513.pdf Fraud The percentage overpaid due to fraud in the preliminary 2012/13 estimate is the same as the 2011/12 estimate, 0.7%. However, this is a slight decrease compared to the 2010/11 estimate, 0.8%. The monetary value of fraud overpayments in the preliminary 2012/13 estimates is the same as those in the 2011/12 and 2010/11 estimates, £1.2bn £1.2 billion is 0.7%. So thats less than 1% of people who claim benefit are claiming fraudulently, they estimate. But hey, £1.2 billion sounds good doesn't it? They also don't mention in the press 0.6% or £0.9 billion is underpaid due to claimant error or 0.3%/£0.5billion underpaid due to official error: Preliminary estimates of Fraud and Error by type of error in 2012/13 0.7%, or £1.2bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to fraud; 0.9%, or £1.6bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to claimant error; 0.4%, or £0.7bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to official error. 0.6%, or £0.9bn, of total benefit expenditure is underpaid due to claimant error; 0.3%, or £0.5bn, of total benefit expenditure is underpaid due to official error. So the total margin of error and fraud is 1.1% of the total benefit bill. But its £ signs and not %'s that matter to this government. Or if you are IDS you make it up as you go along. Propaganda at its best. If you read carefully you will notice the figures are exactly the same (with a small decrease in fraud) as 2010/11 and 2011/12, therefore nothing has changed for 3 years, fraud is not on the increase as this government would have you believe.

Re: Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:15 am  

And the most important word in all of that is the word "estimate", in other words none of those figures can be proven by pointing at actual cases that add up to the total figure - what would be useful is a release of the actual amounts of cash collected by the department after genuine fraud attempts were blocked or recovered after the event, I suspect that the numbers won't be quite so impressive though.

Re: Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:11 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

And the most important word in all of that is the word "estimate", in other words none of those figures can be proven by pointing at actual cases that add up to the total figure - what would be useful is a release of the actual amounts of cash collected by the department after genuine fraud attempts were blocked or recovered after the event, I suspect that the numbers won't be quite so impressive though.

No, no, no ... you are forgetting that what is useful is what IDS "believes".

Re: Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:06 pm  

What about a figure for unclaimed benefit? Amongst which there's plenty of full-time carers not claiming what they are entitled to in this country.

Re: Benefit Fraud - Round 2 : Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:31 pm  

ryano wrote:

What about a figure for unclaimed benefit? Amongst which there's plenty of full-time carers not claiming what they are entitled to in this country.

Preliminary estimates of Fraud and Error by type of error in 2012/13
0.7%, or £1.2bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to fraud;

0.9%, or £1.6bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to claimant error;

0.4%, or £0.7bn, of total benefit expenditure is overpaid due to official error.

0.6%, or £0.9bn, of total benefit expenditure is underpaid due to claimant error;

0.3%, or £0.5bn, of total benefit expenditure is underpaid due to official error.