[DaveO]

Re: Migrant watch 2014 : Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:19 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

It must follow that in Labour's view a person without a job should not be able to go to another country to look for work. And that if you have a skilled job on one country, you still shouldn't be allowed to move to another to do "low skilled" work.

Isn't that exactly the case in countries like Australia, NZ and the USA? No one, skilled or otherwise, can demand a working visa in those countries. A doctor wouldn't be able to go there as a truck driver even if there was a shortage of truck drivers. Doctors can get visa's to be doctors and truck drivers visa's to be truck drivers IF their professions are on a skill shortage list.

In general they don't let anyone in without a job just to look for any old job except students on student working visas. I think you may be able to get enough points to get into NZ if you are in certain professions but don't have a job offer when you apply but you would still be going as someone expected to find a job in these defined professions.

I don't see what is wrong with this if that is what Labour is proposing. If there are labour shortages in low skilled jobs then they would end up on the list of defined skills the UK wanted and people in the rest of the EU could apply.

What am I missing?

Re: Migrant watch 2014 : Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:00 pm  

DaveO wrote:

...

What am I missing?

You're not missing anything, it would just need the entire principle of freedom of movement within the EU to be torn up and reversed, so that absolutely nobody - not a single person - can come to live/work/look for work here without a visa, As opposed to everybody being free to come any time they like, without restriction of any kind.

Re: Migrant watch 2014 : Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:55 pm  

DaveO wrote:

Isn't that exactly the case in countries like Australia, NZ and the USA? No one, skilled or otherwise, can demand a working visa in those countries. A doctor wouldn't be able to go there as a truck driver even if there was a shortage of truck drivers. Doctors can get visa's to be doctors and truck drivers visa's to be truck drivers IF their professions are on a skill shortage list.

In general they don't let anyone in without a job just to look for any old job except students on student working visas. I think you may be able to get enough points to get into NZ if you are in certain professions but don't have a job offer when you apply but you would still be going as someone expected to find a job in these defined professions.

I don't see what is wrong with this if that is what Labour is proposing. If there are labour shortages in low skilled jobs then they would end up on the list of defined skills the UK wanted and people in the rest of the EU could apply.

What am I missing?

The point successive governments have made is that low skilled immigration from outside the EU is not desirable as there are supposedly workers within the EU who can do those jobs. So we only want Indian doctors or American IT specialists, not Chinese street sweepers.

Technically EU immigration isn't immigration due to the free movement principles (and EU nationals aren't subject to immigration rules) so there's nothing to stop low skilled "immigration " from Europe. If Labour are proposing to apply similar rules to EU citizens as to others, it will drive the proverbial coach and horses through the legislation and EU directives. Other EU states could do the same, with implications for EU wide employers.

All of it smacks of tinkering to keep the Mail etc onside. We're heading for disaster when any political party allows the likes of Dacre, Desmond et al to dictate policies.

[DaveO]

Re: Migrant watch 2014 : Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:06 am  

Chris28 wrote:

The point successive governments have made is that low skilled immigration from outside the EU is not desirable as there are supposedly workers within the EU who can do those jobs. So we only want Indian doctors or American IT specialists, not Chinese street sweepers.

That may be true but I am not sure what that has got to do with Labour's position. I thought they seemed to be saying we don't want people turning up without a job. Unless I misunderstood if a Bulgarian road sweeper arranged a job sweeping roads in Chester, he could still come.

Technically EU immigration isn't immigration due to the free movement principles (and EU nationals aren't subject to immigration rules) so there's nothing to stop low skilled "immigration " from Europe. If Labour are proposing to apply similar rules to EU citizens as to others, it will drive the proverbial coach and horses through the legislation and EU directives. Other EU states could do the same, with implications for EU wide employers.

I am sure it would be a bit of a mindfield legistativley but I don't see why it would prevent say a company like Airbus doing as it does now and recruit across the EU for jobs anywhere in any of its geographic locations.

All of it smacks of tinkering to keep the Mail etc onside. We're heading for disaster when any political party allows the likes of Dacre, Desmond et al to dictate policies.

I am sure that has something (quite alot!) to do with it but opinion polls suggest they are going to have to have a seemingly credible alternative to simplistic blanket bans that does actually set out to limit migration to the UK in some way.

That is the reality of the politics we face at the moment and I don't think taking the high ground and arguing against public opinion on this issue is going to get them elected.

I think things are fine as they are myself and people have been brainwashed against free movement of labour but I don't see how the Labour proposals as I understand them would make a huge difference other than prevent unemployed people coming here on spec.