[Durham Giant]

Retrospective pardons : Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:38 pm  

Alan Turing pardoned for homosexual prosecution. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 Lots of other gay men and women should also be pardoned using the same logic as well as the 1000s of women locked up in mental hospitals for being immoral. Seems like only those with society friends will qualify though. Those executed in the first world war as well. The only problem with this is that if it is good enough for one person to be pardoned then it should be retrospective for all. I hate this special case process. Next up Oscar Wilde.

Alan Turing pardoned for homosexual prosecution. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 Lots of other gay men and women should also be pardoned using the same logic as well as the 1000s of women locked up in mental hospitals for being immoral. Seems like only those with society friends will qualify though. Those executed in the first world war as well. The only problem with this is that if it is good enough for one person to be pardoned then it should be retrospective for all. I hate this special case process. Next up Oscar Wilde.

Re: Retrospective pardons : Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:31 pm  

Totally meaningless waste of a press release but I expect they needed a "nice" story for Christmas Eve.

All that is needed is a one-size-fits-all definition of context, this would then cover any past legislation, persecution, prejudice and stuff-that-just-sounds-wrong these days.

A realisation that in the context of times past things were done differently, for different reasons is all that is required - society was more racist by comparison with today, it was without doubt homophobic, it relied on the class system and the knowledge that you had "betters" who should be followed without question, we have the luxury of being able to point at that history and state that we should ensure that it never works that way again but to re-write that history as if it never happened is a dangerous path to walk down.

A bit like erasing any evidence of your manifesto prior to the next election so that you don't get held to account for subsequently ignoring it.

Re: Retrospective pardons : Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:03 pm  

Very good piece by David Allen Green.

Very good piece by David Allen Green.

Re: Retrospective pardons : Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:40 pm  

Durham Giant wrote: Alan Turing pardoned for homosexual prosecution. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 Lots of other gay men and women should also be pardoned using the same logic as well as the 1000s of women locked up in mental hospitals for being immoral. Seems like only those with society friends will qualify though. Those executed in the first world war as well. The only problem with this is that if it is good enough for one person to be pardoned then it should be retrospective for all. I hate this special case process. Next up Oscar Wilde. Just a small correction: no women will need pardons, lesbianism has never been a criminal offence. Apparently Queen Victoria couldn't comprehend how a woman could love another woman because they had nothing to put anywhere

Durham Giant wrote: Alan Turing pardoned for homosexual prosecution. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315 Lots of other gay men and women should also be pardoned using the same logic as well as the 1000s of women locked up in mental hospitals for being immoral. Seems like only those with society friends will qualify though. Those executed in the first world war as well. The only problem with this is that if it is good enough for one person to be pardoned then it should be retrospective for all. I hate this special case process. Next up Oscar Wilde. Just a small correction: no women will need pardons, lesbianism has never been a criminal offence. Apparently Queen Victoria couldn't comprehend how a woman could love another woman because they had nothing to put anywhere

Re: Retrospective pardons : Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:14 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Just a small correction: no women will need pardons, lesbianism has never been a criminal offence. Apparently Queen Victoria couldn't comprehend how a woman could love another woman because they had nothing to put anywhere

Urban myth apparently. From the link above.

There has long been an urban myth that the reason why gross indecency between women was not also criminalized was because no one wanted to explain to Queen Victoria that such a thing as lesbianism existed. (A variant tale is that the queen refused to accept it existed and so she struck that out of the legislation before signing.) There is no evidence for such a story

[Durham Giant]

Re: Retrospective pardons : Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:12 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Just a small correction: no women will need pardons, lesbianism has never been a criminal offence. Apparently Queen Victoria couldn't comprehend how a woman could love another woman because they had nothing to put anywhere

But huge numbers of women were locked up in institutions for moral indiscretions some of them spent their whole lives locked up because they became institutionlised and were deemed not able to be let out into the community. This could be promiscuity , lesbianism or even being a single mother. It went on right up until the 1970s

Re: Retrospective pardons : Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:55 am  

Mintball wrote: Very good piece by David Allen Green. It is interesting and I've read a few articles over the last two days about it. And recall him from reading something many years ago. Thing is with Turing was a genius, but there was also the cloud of him being into young boys. Under age. If those allegations which appear to have been removed from record are true then I would think twice about a pardon. Why is he in particular pardoned? Because he went to Cambridge? Because of his war work? Why does he get the special attention? I think, if you pardon him, you set a precedent and need to pardon the thousands committed under such an archaic law. Also in another piece,"There was this paranoid idea in 1950s England of the homosexual traitor, that he would be seduced by a Russian agent and go over to the other side," Leavitt said. "It was such a misjudgment of Alan Turing because he was so honest, and was so patriotic." Thing is at that time in the UK the famous Cambridge Five Spy Ring who helped the Soviets in and after the War contained two homosexuals in Guy Burgess and Anthony BLunt. Both of whom also worked at Bletchley Park. So in that state of Cold War paranoia you can get an understanding of the mistrust aimed at Turing. All were Cambridge educated of course, though at different colleges.

Mintball wrote: Very good piece by David Allen Green. It is interesting and I've read a few articles over the last two days about it. And recall him from reading something many years ago. Thing is with Turing was a genius, but there was also the cloud of him being into young boys. Under age. If those allegations which appear to have been removed from record are true then I would think twice about a pardon. Why is he in particular pardoned? Because he went to Cambridge? Because of his war work? Why does he get the special attention? I think, if you pardon him, you set a precedent and need to pardon the thousands committed under such an archaic law. Also in another piece,"There was this paranoid idea in 1950s England of the homosexual traitor, that he would be seduced by a Russian agent and go over to the other side," Leavitt said. "It was such a misjudgment of Alan Turing because he was so honest, and was so patriotic." Thing is at that time in the UK the famous Cambridge Five Spy Ring who helped the Soviets in and after the War contained two homosexuals in Guy Burgess and Anthony BLunt. Both of whom also worked at Bletchley Park. So in that state of Cold War paranoia you can get an understanding of the mistrust aimed at Turing. All were Cambridge educated of course, though at different colleges.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Retrospective pardons : Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:08 am  

Rooster Booster wrote:

It is interesting and I've read a few articles over the last two days about it. And recall him from reading something many years ago.

Thing is with Turing was a genius, but there was also the cloud of him being into young boys. Under age. If those allegations which appear to have been removed from record are true then I would think twice about a pardon.

Why is he in particular pardoned? Because he went to Cambridge? Because of his war work? Why does he get the special attention?
I think, if you pardon him, you set a precedent and need to pardon the thousands committed under such an archaic law.

Also in another piece,"There was this paranoid idea in 1950s England of the homosexual traitor, that he would be seduced by a Russian agent and go over to the other side," Leavitt said. "It was such a misjudgment of Alan Turing because he was so honest, and was so patriotic." Thing is at that time in the UK the famous Cambridge Five Spy Ring who helped the Soviets in and after the War contained two homosexuals in Guy Burgess and Anthony BLunt. Both of whom also worked at Bletchley Park. So in that state of Cold War paranoia you can get an understanding of the mistrust aimed at Turing. All were Cambridge educated of course, though at different colleges.

So that leaves three of the five as Heterosexual. It is not as if Straight men might be seduced by female russian spies !

Re: Retrospective pardons : Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:19 am  

It would also be nice for all the soldiers shot for "cowardice" to be pardoned especially as those who found them guilty would never have gone anywhere near the front line.

Re: Retrospective pardons : Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:21 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Totally meaningless waste of a press release but I expect they needed a "nice" story for Christmas Eve.

All that is needed is a one-size-fits-all definition of context, this would then cover any past legislation, persecution, prejudice and stuff-that-just-sounds-wrong these days.

A realisation that in the context of times past things were done differently, for different reasons is all that is required - society was more racist by comparison with today, it was without doubt homophobic, it relied on the class system and the knowledge that you had "betters" who should be followed without question, we have the luxury of being able to point at that history and state that we should ensure that it never works that way again but to re-write that history as if it never happened is a dangerous path to walk down.

A bit like erasing any evidence of your manifesto prior to the next election so that you don't get held to account for subsequently ignoring it.

Exactly. I got the impression that this guy was a tad detatched from reality, undoubtedly a genius in his own chosen field, but even "National Assets" are not above the Law of the Land.

He was judged and convicted by the law as it stood at that time. End of. Are we going to extend an Apology to those convicted of witchcraft way back in the middle ages? The 10 year old boy sentenced to transportation for stealing an apple? A meaningless Pardon to all persons hung, drawn and quartered, simply because we don't do it today?

I have a hell of a lot more sympathy for the soldiers who were hammered for months on end in the trenches, before cracking, and then having to face the final ignominy of a Firing Squad consisting of soldiers from their own regiment.