The education system : Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:51 am  

Following the new tougher GCSE's introduced by Gove and now this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31057005 do you think the education system is starting to move back in the right direction? What is your view on the apparent outrage from the economics students?

Following the new tougher GCSE's introduced by Gove and now this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31057005 do you think the education system is starting to move back in the right direction? What is your view on the apparent outrage from the economics students?

Re: The education system : Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:28 pm  

One of the main problems with the education system is it denies individuals the opportunity to discover their own solutions to a problem in a completely unguided environment. A child learns more about the world and himself in such settings than a string of turgid, over-managed lessons in which conformity is more important than freedom of thought and expression.

Also, it's practically impossible to deliver anything worth so much as a damn to 24 kids in fifty minutes.

Most teachers freely admit that at best they manage to cater to the top achievers and those at the bottom who require additional help (primarily because it is an unconditional deliverable to avoid an ass-kicking). The 80% or so stuck in the middle might as well not exist.

Re: The education system : Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:29 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

One of the main problems with the education system is it denies individuals the opportunity to discover their own solutions to a problem in a completely unguided environment. A child learns more about the world and himself in such settings than a string of turgid, over-managed lessons in which conformity is more important than freedom of thought and expression.

Also, it's practically impossible to deliver anything worth so much as a damn to 24 kids in fifty minutes.

Most teachers freely admit that at best they manage to cater to the top achievers and those at the bottom who require additional help (primarily because it is an unconditional deliverable to avoid an ass-kicking). The 80% or so stuck in the middle might as well not exist.

Spot on
We take kids through 5/6 wildly different subjects every day. Take them from one classroom where they're bored to tears being taught often irrelevant and unnecessary content to another. As you say teachers have no leeway and are forced to teach the ever increasingly daft curriculum every minute of every lesson.

We want to transform education in this country?

Cut the curriculum in half.
Teach relevant content in the different subjects
Allow teachers leeway to actually teach.
Far, far more non-classroom/non-academic work including far far more trips outside of school.
Cut class sizes to the independent school level of 15. Even 20 would be a start, from the often ridiculous situation of 30+ class sizes. My nieces' current Business Studies class is 34. And she's at a decent school.

[DaveO]

Re: The education system : Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:29 am  

Mugwump wrote:

Most teachers freely admit that at best they manage to cater to the top achievers and those at the bottom who require additional help (primarily because it is an unconditional deliverable to avoid an ass-kicking). The 80% or so stuck in the middle might as well not exist.

I could not agree more. My eldest son was one of the 80%. Pretty bright lad but not the "straight A" student and what you say above was precisely the experience he had.

He was "on target" (for middle grades) for his entire school career but the idea of improving to exceed that target? That was never on the agenda. He was doing good enough for the schools league tables not to be upset so that was that.

Re: The education system : Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:10 am  

As a side story, a good friend of mine is a teacher at a local college. He's fantastic with kids and has worked damn hard to get where he is.
However, after a few years securing his dream job at the college (fairly local, etc), he's being driven mad.

He regularly tells me about kids simply not cut out for further education - whether due to lack of application, ability, whatever - kids who would be better going out getting an apprenticeship or going straight into work. Or kids who simply don't care and see college just as an extension to school, something they have to do but don't want to.

Several times he's gone out of his way to help some of these kids yet they still fail their courses, some badly. He's later been called to meetings and grilled as to why he's failed them, and instructed to re-test, re-mark, whatever. When they fail for a second, or third time the issue has been taken out of his hands and he's later found out the kid has been given a pass. It's happened to him quite a few times, and to other teachers across the college.

Why? Very simply, the college gets paid a lump sum for every pass. He mentioned £6k. Seems high to me but could be correct?

Re: The education system : Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:31 pm  

DaveO wrote:

I could not agree more. My eldest son was one of the 80%. Pretty bright lad but not the "straight A" student and what you say above was precisely the experience he had.

He was "on target" (for middle grades) for his entire school career but the idea of improving to exceed that target? That was never on the agenda. He was doing good enough for the schools league tables not to be upset so that was that.

I was at the top end of the 80 percent which meant there were kids in my classes being pulled out to go to special small group classes all the time but never me, I was quite happy to just trundle along not being bothered by anyone but when I got to A levels it meant I had virtually nothing in the way of study skills after never having to really push myself with more academic subjects.

Luckily I scraped through to uni with an extra year and that's much easier as everyone in your friend group is working towards the same goal.

Re: The education system : Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:38 pm  

Cronus wrote:

As a side story, a good friend of mine is a teacher at a local college. He's fantastic with kids and has worked damn hard to get where he is.
However, after a few years securing his dream job at the college (fairly local, etc), he's being driven mad.

He regularly tells me about kids simply not cut out for further education - whether due to lack of application, ability, whatever - kids who would be better going out getting an apprenticeship or going straight into work. Or kids who simply don't care and see college just as an extension to school, something they have to do but don't want to.

Several times he's gone out of his way to help some of these kids yet they still fail their courses, some badly. He's later been called to meetings and grilled as to why he's failed them, and instructed to re-test, re-mark, whatever. When they fail for a second, or third time the issue has been taken out of his hands and he's later found out the kid has been given a pass. It's happened to him quite a few times, and to other teachers across the college.

Why? Very simply, the college gets paid a lump sum for every pass. He mentioned £6k. Seems high to me but could be correct?

I've no idea whether the figure is correct but I know the principal is correct. A target culture combined with the increasing privatisation of education.

A friend of mine was recently unemployed for just about 18 months, after a year she was put on the Work Programme. Sounds nice but it's just a privatisation of the job centre's functions. Instead of going to the job centre she went to a private provider who did whatever they could to get her off their books so they could get their money. They forced her to go to interviews for cleaning jobs, despite having no experience and being totally unsuitable for her (she's partially sighted).

When that didn't work they put her on every training course possible including Functional Skills courses. Which are basic English and Maths courses to less than GCSE standard. Courses run by, IIRC, Barnsley College.

My friend got A*'s in both English & Maths A-Level and has a degree in English Language. Yet was put through several weeks of courses simply so that the private Work Programme provider and Barnsley College can get paid.

The target culture is the bane of the economy at the moment in my opinion, in both the public and private sectors. It massively distorts the industries, businesses and organisations in which its used.

Whether it's the welfare sector in putting people through unsuitable courses or trying to get them into unsuitable jobs or get them off disability benefit.
Or the Education sector which has been turned into an exam-passing factory.

Re: The education system : Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:35 pm  

You can't begin to evaluate the effectiveness of the education system without first realising that it is a multi-dimensional question, the answer to which is entirely dependent on one's frame of reference.

As someone who once taught secondary I'm roughly in agreement with the overwhelming majority of the population by saying it's a mess.

Indeed, I go so far as to say it is a complete misconception to think school provides "an education" in the common sense of the word.

Above anything school teaches children:

1. Obedience to authority
2. Freedom of thought is undesirable.
3. No freedom of action is permitted without supervision.
4. The only desirable aptitude is academic aptitude.

Given the above it's a miracle anyone leaves school without feeling in some way worthless.

But there is one perspective from which school seems to have been just smashing since creation. It's not a purely 1:1 relationship but the split of leaders, workers and exploited roughly matches the three main strata you find in most schools.

School mightn't give you what you want but it serves business very well, thankyou.

Re: The education system : Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:59 pm  

the cal train wrote:

I was at the top end of the 80 percent which meant there were kids in my classes being pulled out to go to special small group classes all the time but never me, I was quite happy to just trundle along not being bothered by anyone but when I got to A levels it meant I had virtually nothing in the way of study skills after never having to really push myself with more academic subjects.

Luckily I scraped through to uni with an extra year and that's much easier as everyone in your friend group is working towards the same goal.

That's pretty much my experience too. The effort went toward the A* students and the ones causing problems in class.

[DaveO]

Re: The education system : Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:42 pm  

the cal train wrote:

I was at the top end of the 80 percent which meant there were kids in my classes being pulled out to go to special small group classes all the time but never me, I was quite happy to just trundle along not being bothered by anyone but when I got to A levels it meant I had virtually nothing in the way of study skills after never having to really push myself with more academic subjects.

Luckily I scraped through to uni with an extra year and that's much easier as everyone in your friend group is working towards the same goal.

Very much the same as my lad then. He was at the top end of the 80%. He even got a level 8 (top level) in Maths Sats before starting GCSE's but when he wasn't put into the "gifted and talented group" it meant he was just left to get on with it and that is exactly not what was required.

At parents evenings we were repeatedly told he was "on target" and it took us a while to realise the "target" was pretty poor. He had been assessed, was deemed to be on to achieve certain grades and this was sold to us OK if he was on for those grades. He wasn't falling behind target so that was fine supposedly. I can't ever recall one parents evening where the discussion moved from talking about being "on target" to improving beyond that.

Contrast this to my experience many years ago. I failed my "11 plus" went to a "secondary modern" but was (eventually after parents insisted) given the chance to do "O levels". I then transferred to a grammar school for A-levels where the last thing they were aiming for was me or anyone else getting mediocre grades. The classes were not small either as for various reasons they had a big intake into the 6th form from my ex-school but the emphasis was on getting the grades to go to my chosen Uni.

It wasn't perfect because those that didn't want to go to Uni were left adrift and with little advice and help as to careers but the point is there was none of this "on target" rubbish. Your target was to do the best you could.

Now not only are targets set that are pretty low but they also encourages people to do "just enough". Need a C to get into Uni? Why bother trying for an A?

I see this to an extent in my work for the Open University where I tutor part time. I sometimes see students who due to the degrees now being points based have worked out they only need to pass my course or get a middle grade to get their Two-One or First and so that is all they do. They idea they might learn something useful if they put the effort in anyway is something that seems to be disappearing from our educational culture.