Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 11:40 am  

Bugger me, here's another one Government "re-thinking" charity tax relief No wonder Gideon has decided not to attend Leveson in person, Jay would have him screaming for "Nanny" within an hour

Bugger me, here's another one Government "re-thinking" charity tax relief No wonder Gideon has decided not to attend Leveson in person, Jay would have him screaming for "Nanny" within an hour

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 12:08 pm  

Both the Pasty and caravan taxes are strange ones.

As someone has already said with regard to the pasty tax how the hell did they expect to police it?
It was clearly a stupid idea right from the off.

As for the caravan tax the guys in the back admitted early on that there was going to be a hell if a lot of job loses over it and that there would be very little gain when taking everything into account.
Yet the idiots decided that what the country needed was less folks in employment for almost no reason.
They then no doubt wondered why it was so unpopular.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 12:13 pm  

A shame they show no signs o0f doing the same on the NHS – opposed by a substantial majority of the people who actually work in the health service.

Although, of course, that might mean them personally losing money.

[DaveO]

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 12:21 pm  

Standee wrote:

Labour never changed any of their plans, did they?

I am sure they did but I don't recall them having to do so because of sheer incompetence. The fact the pasty tax made it to into the budget before they realised they could not enforce it is a striking bit of stupidity but it is also symptomatic of this governments policy making.

I said ages ago this was a government of unintended consequences (being kind and not assuming they were deliberately trying to wreck the country....) and my God they prove me right on regular basis. They are idiots.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 12:54 pm  

Where we are, and tbf Blair pioneered it, is the era of spin doctors and private briefings, coupled with partial decision makers who directly stand to gain from their decisions.(basically, corruption).

Whilst Blair pioneered it, at least he had some high calibre people such as Campbell who were good at it, but in essence he realised that in fact, you don't have to listen, you don't have to consult, you can easily get away without any real consultation, as long as you spin and dress it right;

He further realised that even when caught out, there is still a place for spin doctors, as insteqad of accepting any blame or criticism at all, you can basically ride out the storm, as critically the penny dropped with him and Campbell & Co. that a media storm is just that - within days, if you ride it out, it's gone, and you've got away with whatever it was. Literally.

The more they did this, the more incredulous they became as to just how easy it was to get away with it. Even to the extent that if a senior man did something utterly terrible, then you could even get away with that by pretending to "sack" him, with a quiet word in his ear that he'd be back in around 3 - 6 months when nobody would care any more. And so it went on, until they believed that they could actually do whatever they liked with impunity. And they could. WMD being just one example.

What the Con-Libs have done is adopt the same style, but really pushed the envelope with speed of change, zero meaningful consultation, and pre-determined outcomes (hence you get Government policy which turns out to be a cut and paste from a written submission, complete with spelling mistakes, just for example).

At least with Labour, you had a reasonable number of bright people coming up with the stuff, so while the democratic process was being castrated, the end product was at least often reasonably well thought through. But with this shower of shoite, they seem to be filled to the gunwales with fools, incompetents and generally people of low ability, and so they can't see what would have been obvious snags and loopholes to a drafter with half a brain. So you have the perfect storm of policy being imposed without consultation which would at least point to many of the imminent problems, whilst being written by people whose brainpower is, simply, nowhere near up to the job.

And so ingrained has the arrogance become that they even try to spin out of the holes they create. Like trying to spin out of the pasty tax farrago, implying they are just 'listening' when it was not up for consultation, but a nailed-down plank in a fookin Budget, ffs.

Treasury Minister David Gauke said the government has listened to "representations" from the industries affected while still addressing some anomalies in the VAT system.

On the issue of VAT on takeaway food, he said "we have a simpler system than we previously had and we have improved the position".

Oh and of course releasing the U-turn on a "good day to bury bad news", another trick straight from New labour's portfolio. Spin, spin and more spin. Lies. Deceit. And all totally straight-faced.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 1:16 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Where we are, and tbf Blair pioneered it, is the era of spin doctors ...

Not entirely true. Bernard Ingham was a spin doctor for Margaret Thatcher. It could be argued that Blair & Co simply built on that. And there is an argument that the majority of the media was/is so incapable of representing politics in a reasoned manner that he had little choice but to do this.

[DaveO]

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 1:52 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

At least with Labour, you had a reasonable number of bright people coming up with the stuff, so while the democratic process was being castrated, the end product was at least often reasonably well thought through. But with this shower of shoite, they seem to be filled to the gunwales with fools, incompetents and generally people of low ability, and so they can't see what would have been obvious snags and loopholes to a drafter with half a brain. So you have the perfect storm of policy being imposed without consultation which would at least point to many of the imminent problems, whilst being written by people whose brainpower is, simply, nowhere near up to the job.

And so ingrained has the arrogance become that they even try to spin out of the holes they create. Like trying to spin out of the pasty tax farrago, implying they are just 'listening' when it was not up for consultation, but a nailed-down plank in a fookin Budget, ffs.
Oh and of course releasing the U-turn on a "good day to bury bad news", another trick straight from New labour's portfolio. Spin, spin and more spin. Lies. Deceit. And all totally straight-faced.

I don't think spin has got anything to do with it. They didn't try and spin numerous policies that have backfired. They may have tried to justify policies as all governments do but the problem is they have simply come up with host of simply ill thought out policies. For example everyone told them if they allowed Uni's to charge £9K a year fees then virtually all of them would do so. And they did with none that I know of charging £6K. They were told this would happen but the policy went ahead. Did they know this would the case themselves? I don't know but the policy as presented was not supposed to result in £9K fees or as near as makes no difference all round. The forest sell off was the same. Lots of loopholes which were pointed out as soon as the legislation was published. Same with the pasty tax which was unworkable. It is not spin that is the issue but that clearly stupid policies make it as far as they do without the government and its civil servants spotting such obvious problems.

I find it hard to believe the government would have been well aware the pasty tax was unenforceable for example and yet went as far as putting in the budget only to have to withdraw it and I see no link with spin when they dreamt the idea up. Just incompetence.

They may try and pass off the U turn as the result of a listening exercise when it patently isn't for the reason you say but that is just par for the course.

The problem lies with the polices not the presentation.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 3:13 pm  

Largely agree, but one man's justification is another man's spin, and the problem also lies with the presentation, in large part because of the sheer pretence of meaningful consultation, spun as such when in truth it is nothing of the sort.

Major examples of current spin surround the concerted campaigns to wreck the NHS, wreck legal aid and wreck the civil justice system, all of which are of course perfect examples of simply ill thought out policies as well as incompetence.

i'd guess though that the prime current example of spin married to incompetence and ill-considered policy is the economy.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 4:14 pm  

The pasty tax U-turn is hilariously incompetent.
As I understand it, the rule will now be that if it is kept warm on a heated tray it'll be subject to 20% VAT but if it just happens to be warm because it's just come out of the oven or whatever, it won't.
Does this mean that fish and chips, if straight from the pan, won't attract VAT now?

Re: Budget U-Turn : Tue May 29, 2012 4:29 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

The pasty tax U-turn is hilariously incompetent.
As I understand it, the rule will now be that if it is kept warm on a heated tray it'll be subject to 20% VAT but if it just happens to be warm because it's just come out of the oven or whatever, it won't.
Does this mean that fish and chips, if straight from the pan, won't attract VAT now?

No, because it's a food that is meant to be eaten hot.

Like a roast chicken off a spit. Buy one of them and you pay VAT. Oh, hang on, unless the supermarket puts it in a bag and leaves it there, in which case if you happen to pick the bag up and buy the chicken while it's still piping hot, you still don't pay the VAT.

I hope that's cleared it up.