Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:21 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Is it really?

Nobody from any political party has said that. Where are the statistics and the research that have demonstrated the truth of this startling claim?

Or did you just make it up?

He makes lots of things up does Saddened.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:25 pm  

Wonder if they include those who have reached 65 and never done a days graft in their lives, a couple near to my mam spring to mind, it would certainly save the state money as he would collapse with shock if he was asked to contribute.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:24 pm  

Thought I was reading the Daily Mash when I clicked the BBC link!

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:51 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Note that they've not actually done anything here, it's just someone suggesting ideas. With an ageing population the cost of supporting pensionsers from 65 through to death is unsustainable. People are living longer and the average person will live to 82 now. That is 17 years of free state handouts if they don't have their own pensions. Where do you people expect that money to come from?

17 years of state pension after 49 years of tax contributions, of which the state pension can in theory be taxed again and is then recirculated back into the economy supporting private and public companies alike, and being retaxed again as VAT.

In ten years time I have no expectation that a government will provide a pension that will support me, I have two private pensions that are worth fook-all since "the markets" robbed them (remember that bit about them going down as well as up ?) and so I await the 2020's with a mixture of trepidation and of cynicism as I wait in line at the local soup kitchen...

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:06 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

... and so I await the 2020's with a mixture of trepidation and of cynicism as I wait in line at the local soup kitchen...

You won't be queuing at it, you'll be serving. If you want what's left of your pension, of course.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:57 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

17 years of state pension after 49 years of tax contributions

That doesn't sound like the "free handout" Saddened mentioned, so there must be another one you can get, on top of that one.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:57 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

You won't be queuing at it, you'll be serving. If you want what's left of your pension, of course.

"Aviva Pensions is proud to sponsor this soup kitchen, manned entirely by "volunteers" who want to draw their Aviva Pension this month"

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:06 am  

Chris28 wrote:

That doesn't sound like the "free handout" Saddened mentioned, so there must be another one you can get, on top of that one.

The real crime that was committed 60-odd years ago was to give the impression to those of working age at that time that the money that was taken from them under the guise of National Insurance was to pay for their healthcare throughout their life, and for them to have a state pension after 60 or 65 years of age.

Of course, that was smoke and mirrors, we all know that now, but my parents generation were taken in by those smoke and mirrors and the myth was passed down to my generation - its only in the last 15 or so years that governments of both flavours have held their hands up and told us that it was all bollax and the money that they'd been taken off us since we were 16 years old was actually not for our benefit at all.

I'm just happy that my parents had a good retirement and managed on the pension that I paid for, I'm not so happy that there will be no-one around to do it for me, or that "the markets" screwed up with my additional pension provisions, politicians of all flavours gambled and continue to gamble with the hope that my childrens generation will be able to personally save enough during their working lives to pay for their retirement - they may if they put that money under their beds, they won't if they hand it over to "the markets" to look after.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:12 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

The real crime that was committed 60-odd years ago was to give the impression to those of working age at that time that the money that was taken from them under the guise of National Insurance was to pay for their healthcare throughout their life, and for them to have a state pension after 60 or 65 years of age.

That is precisely the point here.

Are there any figures anywhere for how that calculation would pan out over the average life?

Average salary = £27k ish? NI at 11% would be roughly £3,000 x 47 years = roughly £140,000 over the average life.

A state pension at the minimum of £65 a week is roughly £3,500 per year. Times the 19 years the average person lives is roughly £66,500. That leaves just £73,500 to pay for healthcare. With say 4 visits to the GP at £25 per visit over 82 years thats another £8200 gone. An average A&E visit costs the NHS £195.67 ( ) so we'll throw in another couple of pounds for that. So a person who works his whole life and doesn't have NHS treamtment for Cancer or diabetes for example might just about contribute more than they take back.

But once you throw in the diabetics (Hands up here) who cost the NHS £5,000 per year EACH and the cancer sufferers who cost the NHS god knows how much plus all the people who choose not to bother with that working malarkey and it's pretty clear there will be an enormous shortfall building up. With more oldies and them living longer, it'll only get worse.

Quite staggering really. If you take me as an example. I'll cost the state £358,200 in NHS costs alone but only contribute roughly £180,000 in NI. And that's me working every minute of my life and assuming I die at 65 and don't get to claim my hard earned pension. So 4 or 5 of you are probably working your butts off to pay for me

There are a few choices. You either raise income taxes, have a health scheme like the US where you pay for what you use (I'd be fine with that on moral grounds) or you reduce the burden somewhere. A cull at 65 if you've not got a positive balance in your 'contribution to the state' account perhaps?

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:47 am  

Saddened! wrote:

A cull at 65 if you've not got a positive balance in your 'contribution to the state' account perhaps?

Like in "Logan's Run"?