Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 10:18 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Without wishing to divert down a different road I'd be a bit wary of giving a dog any sort of leeway outside of the traditional "pack animal" approach and I'd agree with RGX that the puppy has to know that everyone else in the house takes priority - this is definitely not done by physical punishment but by voice level and intonation - the dog will read and understand every inflection of your voice as they are incredibly perceptive of this and of facial expressions (I'm sure you know this anyway) and also subtle things like the dog being fed after your family eat (with its own food), or you not allowing it to push past you when entering a room, or stopping barking when you tell it to - you've assessed what its perceives to be danger and you are telling it that its ok.

The point needs to be made too that the dog is happy with this, in any pack there is only one leader and the rest will quite happily follow it and many dogs will become anxious if there is not a leader to follow, I'm on my third German Shepherd now and they incredibly loyal and very sociable dogs but they need strong leadership, give them those guidelines and they will never be a problem to your family or to other families, too many of them are bought to bark at strangers and even show aggression, that's just plain wrong and is a fault in the ownership.

Our dog (well my dog) knows I'm the gaffer. I use simple commands: sit, walk, hold, drop, down etc. Whereas Emma almost tries to hold a conversation with him, I can only imagine that all he hears is similar to Bart Simpson's Santa's Little Helper. If she tells him to do something when I'm around, he invariably looks to me for approval.

He's not an aggressive dog but for some reason he doesn't particularly like young (8-10 years) blonde girls. If one approaches him he simply turns away and utters a barely audible growl. He's rarely out of my sight and I honestly can't remember him ever being mistreated by a young blonde girl in the past. Mind you, the only dog he's ever gone for is a black standard poodle, clipped to show standards, that we sometimes see at Cheddar car boot. I put that down to some latent hatred of poofs

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 11:05 am  

Hull White Star wrote: http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die I've only read this one so far but this para is, I believe, really important ... Family life can also be remarkably inconsistent for a pet, and dogs may focus their efforts on resources that are extremely important to them, but not necessarily to the owner. Lack of consistency proves to the dog that they are capable of deciding the outcome of many, albeit small, interactions. Add in the effects of either a bold or shy character, and other inherited predispositions that need to be satisfied, and you have a dog that can be extremely resistant to their owner’s efforts to control their behaviour. To be honest most of the rest of it is "sort of" going along with the "dominant" theory if not the extremes then certainly the ethos that you are in control and that most dogs will go along with that, it doesn't mean that you behave like a police dog controller (I've got two family members and a close friend who are and they still take the dominance approach to extremes) but, for instance, when I take mine out in the park every morning we do two circuits and he trots on in front off the lead but HAS to follow what I ask him to do - he'll often try and head back to the car park after one circuit because he still has anxieties from being abandoned as a young dog, I'll call him once and then walk off, his choice is then to follow me which he always does and we've now got this down to hand signals only - he is submitting to my will rather than run back to the car which is what I know he wants to do (you have to see the approach of a panic attack when his abandonment issue creeps in, it heartbreaking to watch him). The recent documentary on TV with Martin Clunes on dog behavior and how it was linked to their natural senses was very interesting, watching your dog watching you for signals is fascinating, when we first visited the Dogs Trust it was to look at rehoming a deaf Dalmation (a common breed problem) and I wondered how the hell you'd control a deaf dog off the lead, I think I could probably do it now with my dog.

Hull White Star wrote: http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die I've only read this one so far but this para is, I believe, really important ... Family life can also be remarkably inconsistent for a pet, and dogs may focus their efforts on resources that are extremely important to them, but not necessarily to the owner. Lack of consistency proves to the dog that they are capable of deciding the outcome of many, albeit small, interactions. Add in the effects of either a bold or shy character, and other inherited predispositions that need to be satisfied, and you have a dog that can be extremely resistant to their owner’s efforts to control their behaviour. To be honest most of the rest of it is "sort of" going along with the "dominant" theory if not the extremes then certainly the ethos that you are in control and that most dogs will go along with that, it doesn't mean that you behave like a police dog controller (I've got two family members and a close friend who are and they still take the dominance approach to extremes) but, for instance, when I take mine out in the park every morning we do two circuits and he trots on in front off the lead but HAS to follow what I ask him to do - he'll often try and head back to the car park after one circuit because he still has anxieties from being abandoned as a young dog, I'll call him once and then walk off, his choice is then to follow me which he always does and we've now got this down to hand signals only - he is submitting to my will rather than run back to the car which is what I know he wants to do (you have to see the approach of a panic attack when his abandonment issue creeps in, it heartbreaking to watch him). The recent documentary on TV with Martin Clunes on dog behavior and how it was linked to their natural senses was very interesting, watching your dog watching you for signals is fascinating, when we first visited the Dogs Trust it was to look at rehoming a deaf Dalmation (a common breed problem) and I wondered how the hell you'd control a deaf dog off the lead, I think I could probably do it now with my dog.

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 11:28 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

The recent documentary on TV with Martin Clunes on dog behavior and how it was linked to their natural senses was very interesting, watching your dog watching you for signals is fascinating, when we first visited the Dogs Trust it was to look at rehoming a deaf Dalmation (a common breed problem) and I wondered how the hell you'd control a deaf dog off the lead, I think I could probably do it now with my dog.

I've taught mine to look at me in certain situations like if there is a dog coming up on lead or passing an area I don't want them to go in, that sort of thing (diversion technique). Now all they have to see is a dog on lead and they are looking at me waiting for the treat and when I am passing the park area that I don't want them to go in, they stop and wait for me without direction from me to put their leads on. As soon as leads are off they are looking at me again waiting for me to say "off you go then" before they go off doing their own thing again.

As you probably know I have Karens dog (Sully) sometimes (its going to be Tilly next time, yay!) and I can watch Sully and my lurcher Molly play for hours on end. Its fascinating watching their body language and behaviour, for me anyways

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 11:45 am  

Hull White Star wrote:

This theory is outdated now. A group of captive wolves were studied in the 1960's and observed but they were bred captive and bear no relevance to the wild wolf. This has been scientifically proved. The behaviours shown in the study were completely different to wild wolves. A dog may be a pack animal but they do not need to know their place in the pack. Dogs do not need to be at the bottom.

With respect, this is nonsense. A dog that thinks it is above any of the people in its household is a potentially dangerous dog. It needs to know who is in charge.

Hull White Star wrote:

I do not wish to dominate my dogs. I guide them, show them with training, boundaries and whats acceptable and what isn't using positive reinforcement methods.

And? Where did I say any other? You are guiding them, giving them boundaries and showing them what's acceptable - that ought to include that it must obey all of the humans in your household. If it feels it is 'above' any of the humans in your household, it will choose not to obey them if it sees fit. You don't have to 'dominate' a dog for it to know its place.

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 12:28 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

With respect, this is nonsense. A dog that thinks it is above any of the people in its household is a potentially dangerous dog. It needs to know who is in charge.

And? Where did I say any other? You are guiding them, giving them boundaries and showing them what's acceptable - that ought to include that it must obey all of the humans in your household. If it feels it is 'above' any of the humans in your household, it will choose not to obey them if it sees fit. You don't have to 'dominate' a dog for it to know its place.

Read my links. The Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors and Victoria Stillwell amongst others disagree with you.

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 12:39 pm  

Thanks for all of the advice.

Some really useful stuff that will help us to bring up the dog correctly.

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 1:22 pm  

Hull White Star wrote: Read my links. The Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors and Victoria Stillwell amongst others disagree with you. All your links show is that it's not necessary to 'dominate' a dog in order to train it correctly. There's no need to use force or aggression. Just because dogs don't 'plan' how they might move up the hierarchy in their families, doesn't mean to say the dog doesn't need to know its place. A dog needs to know that it obeys ALL of the humans in your household. From the Kennel Club website: "Help your puppy find its place in the hierarchy Puppies need to learn their place in the human pack. Strong-willed puppies need to learn that they cannot have their own way all the time and what you want must come first." From Train Your Puppy: "A dog must not control the household in any manner. Rules need to be established and followed consistently by all family members and visitors to the home. This is especially true for puppies. It is most important for puppies for toilet training and safety purposes, in addition to setting the hierarchy within the home."

Hull White Star wrote: Read my links. The Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors and Victoria Stillwell amongst others disagree with you. All your links show is that it's not necessary to 'dominate' a dog in order to train it correctly. There's no need to use force or aggression. Just because dogs don't 'plan' how they might move up the hierarchy in their families, doesn't mean to say the dog doesn't need to know its place. A dog needs to know that it obeys ALL of the humans in your household. From the Kennel Club website: "Help your puppy find its place in the hierarchy Puppies need to learn their place in the human pack. Strong-willed puppies need to learn that they cannot have their own way all the time and what you want must come first." From Train Your Puppy: "A dog must not control the household in any manner. Rules need to be established and followed consistently by all family members and visitors to the home. This is especially true for puppies. It is most important for puppies for toilet training and safety purposes, in addition to setting the hierarchy within the home."

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 3:06 pm  

Rock God X wrote: All your links show is that it's not necessary to 'dominate' a dog in order to train it correctly. There's no need to use force or aggression. Just because dogs don't 'plan' how they might move up the hierarchy in their families, doesn't mean to say the dog doesn't need to know its place. A dog needs to know that it obeys ALL of the humans in your household. From the Kennel Club website: "Help your puppy find its place in the hierarchy Puppies need to learn their place in the human pack. Strong-willed puppies need to learn that they cannot have their own way all the time and what you want must come first." From Train Your Puppy: "A dog must not control the household in any manner. Rules need to be established and followed consistently by all family members and visitors to the home. This is especially true for puppies. It is most important for puppies for toilet training and safety purposes, in addition to setting the hierarchy within the home." You and the Kennel Club have your opinion and I and many others have ours. A dog knows that we are not dogs therefore there is no reason to establish a "hierarchy" within the home imo. If you believe a dog wants to "control your home" you believe your dog is being dominant over you and imo and in the opinion of the links I have provided that is not the case. If you watch my two in my home you would say my staffy cross is more "dominant" over my lurcher. If you watch my two whilst out in the country on a walk my lurcher is more "dominant" sniffing out rabbit holes and leading the scenting whilst my staffy "follows". My dogs do what they do because a) I have taught them, b) they want to and c) they respect me, not because they want to "control my home".

Rock God X wrote: All your links show is that it's not necessary to 'dominate' a dog in order to train it correctly. There's no need to use force or aggression. Just because dogs don't 'plan' how they might move up the hierarchy in their families, doesn't mean to say the dog doesn't need to know its place. A dog needs to know that it obeys ALL of the humans in your household. From the Kennel Club website: "Help your puppy find its place in the hierarchy Puppies need to learn their place in the human pack. Strong-willed puppies need to learn that they cannot have their own way all the time and what you want must come first." From Train Your Puppy: "A dog must not control the household in any manner. Rules need to be established and followed consistently by all family members and visitors to the home. This is especially true for puppies. It is most important for puppies for toilet training and safety purposes, in addition to setting the hierarchy within the home." You and the Kennel Club have your opinion and I and many others have ours. A dog knows that we are not dogs therefore there is no reason to establish a "hierarchy" within the home imo. If you believe a dog wants to "control your home" you believe your dog is being dominant over you and imo and in the opinion of the links I have provided that is not the case. If you watch my two in my home you would say my staffy cross is more "dominant" over my lurcher. If you watch my two whilst out in the country on a walk my lurcher is more "dominant" sniffing out rabbit holes and leading the scenting whilst my staffy "follows". My dogs do what they do because a) I have taught them, b) they want to and c) they respect me, not because they want to "control my home".

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 3:35 pm  

Just to add one more thing - I've seen/owned two dogs who believed that they dominated our home, one was a GSD cross bitch who did what she wanted, where she wanted, showed aggression randomly and for no apparent reason, soiled in the house randomly and for no apparent reason when otherwise she was house trained - we had her put to sleep after 12 months because she was simply uncontrollable and I suspect was mentally damaged.

The other was a Shih Tzu male puppy that we were fostering until a permanent home could be found, when I read up on the breed it said that one of the characteristics was a dog which punches above its weight and likes to follow its own will and the one we had certainly did that, it was seriously a very dominant dog for something that you'd tread on and not notice, I've always had big dogs and apart from the one mad one never met a dog like that Shih Tzu, it just didn't want to socialise with us at all and made life hell for our old golden retriever who by then was 13 years old and starting to suffer from cancer - fortunately the little poop(zuh) found a woman who was familiar with the breed and she admitted that they could be very dominant if allowed and were far from being an old ladies dog as most people view them.

Re: Buying A Dog : Thu May 09, 2013 3:40 pm  

Hull White Star wrote:

You and the Kennel Club have your opinion and I and many others have ours.

You have read a few web links, not understood them properly, and formed an opinion based on that. Your links say that dominance-based training methods are unhelpful and unnecessary, and that a positive, reward-based method is preferable. I haven't once disagreed with any of that. But what the links don't say is that a dog doesn't need to 'know its place'. A dog needs to know that the humans in its home are to be obeyed.

Hull White Star wrote:

A dog knows that we are not dogs therefore there is no reason to establish a "hierarchy" within the home imo.

What difference does it make whether it thinks we are dogs or not? A dog will only obey a person that it feels subservient to. This is true of any animal in any family unit, including humans. If the dog believes it is superior to any of the humans in its home, it may choose not to obey them. I'm sure I don't have to explain the potential consequences of this.

Hull White Star wrote:

If you believe a dog wants to "control your home" you believe your dog is being dominant over you and imo and in the opinion of the links I have provided that is not the case.

No. The links you provided state that a dog doesn't plan to rise up the hierarchy by displaying dominant behaviour. It's not calculated in that way. But if the dog doesn't have clear boundaries, and doesn't know who is in charge, then it may become disobedient and display dominant behaviour. Chicken and egg, see? Unless, of course, you're asserting that no dog ever displays such behaviour?

Hull White Star wrote:

My dogs do what they do because a) I have taught them, b) they want to and c) they respect me, not because they want to "control my home".

Eh? Where have I said that your dogs want to control your home? And what you have written above kind of illustrates the point I am making. You have taught them, they want to please you (as their leader) and they respect you (as their leader). They know their place. If you hadn't taught them that you are the boss they wouldn't do as you say, because they would have no reason to. It's really not difficult to understand.