Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:56 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

There's a jarring great pile of hypocrisy coming from the right of UK politics about immigration from new EU countries.

Those who uproot their families to come here from Bulgaria, Romania etc are doing exactly what the right wing media in the UK seem to think British unemployed should be doing - getting off their backsides and considering relocating to where the work is in order to better themselves.

But the 2.6m unemployed in this country means that there clearly isn't the work here.

They are not here because the work is here, they are here because the rewards for working here are significantly higher than the rewards for working in their country.

Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:06 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

But the 2.6m unemployed in this country means that there clearly isn't the work here.

They are not here because the work is here, they are here because the rewards for working here are significantly higher than the rewards for working in their country.

Your second point is certainly true but your first point is a bit more complex than what you state.

There is work available, there are vacancies in every job centre and certainly in every job agency in town, the problem is that in an "employers market" there is no need for commitment and short term contracts or zero hour contracts are the norm now, as is minimum wage rates and location flexibility.

All of which is fine if you are newly arrived from another country and the minimum wage is double what you would expect in your old country (not the case now with the first wave of immigrants from the Baltic regions), and more importantly you can locate anywhere and relocate at a days notice, if you have no children to find schools for and no family ties with anywhere then you will always find work anywhere you choose to stick a pin in a map.

The bulk of the unemployed do not have that flexibility and you do get to a point where you are trapped into having to find a job in your locality - at worse on a bus route (good luck with that outside London) and at best economically viable to drive the distance (ESJ's now recommend seeking work up to 30 miles distant, car or no car).

[DaveO]

Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:09 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

They come over here and work and then pay tax & NI. If the government of the day cannot apportion financial and human resource to address the situations you describe, then I'd blame the government of the day. Mind you, I do tend to blame them for most things

It's not that simple is it. They could chuck money at it tomorrow and it doesn't mean there is the infrastructure in place and where does it stop? How many different foreign languages are lessons to be offered in or how many different kinds of language teachers are to be employed in each school to cater for arrivals from different countries?

I am certain school are left to flounder financially when having to deal with an influx of migrants but there are practical issues as well.

Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:56 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

Your second point is certainly true but your first point is a bit more complex than what you state.

There is work available, there are vacancies in every job centre and certainly in every job agency in town, the problem is that in an "employers market" there is no need for commitment and short term contracts or zero hour contracts are the norm now, as is minimum wage rates and location flexibility.

All of which is fine if you are newly arrived from another country and the minimum wage is double what you would expect in your old country (not the case now with the first wave of immigrants from the Baltic regions), and more importantly you can locate anywhere and relocate at a days notice, if you have no children to find schools for and no family ties with anywhere then you will always find work anywhere you choose to stick a pin in a map.

The bulk of the unemployed do not have that flexibility and you do get to a point where you are trapped into having to find a job in your locality - at worse on a bus route (good luck with that outside London) and at best economically viable to drive the distance (ESJ's now recommend seeking work up to 30 miles distant, car or no car).

Spot on.
It is the much-acclaimed "flexible job market" upon which HMG prides itself ... and wants to make even more flexible with even fewer protections for the employee.
Custom designed to be undercut by recent entrants to the EU.

Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:07 pm  

one thing to remember though, most EU citizens speak and write English to a good standard (it could be argued, better than many posting on here)and yet few "English" people have more than a "conversational" second language.

Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:44 pm  

Christ.

Have the cast of "Cocoon" woken up?

Anyone got a spare Werthers?

Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:42 am  

Standee wrote:

one thing to remember though, most EU citizens speak and write English to a good standard (it could be argued, better than many posting on here)and yet few "English" people have more than a "conversational" second language.

I worked in Madrid for nearly a year and picked up the language for use outside of the office quite quickly.
Granted, the project's official language was English but my Spanish colleagues knew that I was keen to use Spanish wherever possible. Nonetheless I'm certain my grasp of the language would have accelerated if I'd had to use Spanish more in the office.
Ditto with working in Germany.

So, your point is accurate, I couldn't have started on a Spanish-speaking job without better Spanish language skills and I actually failed a German interview for another job there where the project language was German as it was too hard work (quite understandably) for the interviewer to simplify his German for me.
If I'd been better prepared, I reckon I'd have stood a really good chance of that job as I was very experienced in all the other skills required, indeed the guy was in a bit of a dilemma whether to give me the job despite the language shortfall but, to be honest, I'd have struggled with the scoping and planning meetings early in the project.

It's not actually difficult to learn another language but if you don't know (as I did but many don't) what a verb is or a noun, even in English, you're going to have to learn that at the same time, which makes progress that much slower.

On the other hand, a large part of the rest of the world tends to use English as a sort of Esperanto second language, which does make us a little lazy.

Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:11 am  

Sandra The Terrorist wrote:

Christ.

Have the cast of "Cocoon" woken up?

Anyone got a spare Werthers?

Yes, we're back ... and this time sit up and listen.

Re: Support for "Free Market" increasing in younger generati : Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:56 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Thats also another interesting point and its not always down to skin colour either ...

Was racism ever about skin colour? I mean, in the colonial days of the United States - which came first: the need for lebensraum or hatred of the native population? the need for vast reserves of cheap labour to harvest cotton or the Klan?

Far too often people get wrapped up with skin colour and forget that there is almost always a rational basis to racism which is linked to wealth and power.

It's interesting to look at the racial targeting of drug laws in the United States to understand how racism is economically motivated. Take opium and the Chinese for instance. The use of opium in medicine and recreation pre-dates Columbus' arrival. Aside from church activists there really wasn't a great deal of opposition to it. Similarly, no-one cared all that much when Chinese immigrants first arrived to help construct America's vast railroad network. It was extremely hazardous work in tough conditions for minimal reward. American workers thought the Chinese were out of their minds and even the media wondered whether it was a hopeless pipe-dream. But despite the corruption, attacks by native Indians and a shocking death toll the railroads were completed and suddenly there was a glut of cheap Chinese labour competing for jobs Americans most definitely didn't want to lose. It was at this point - not before - when being Asian became a problem. Facing a storm of protest which threatened to get out of control (particularly in California and Colorado) state prosecutors found a way to legislate against a specific race by targeting the one activity which impacted most severely upon the Chinese - opium usage.

Take any of the major recreational drugs and look at how legislation against such was very often defined within a sectarian context.