Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:51 am  

Pretty sure I said most of that...

You expect any union to swallow an end to any redundancy packages and at the same time be told that there will be redundancies?

As I said, neither side had covered themselves in glory, While McCluskey completely misjudged the situation thinking it was an attempt to push uncalled for reforms through on the coat tails of a dispute about the sacking of a union rep. Ineos have been displaying the traits of "management" of the 70's too.

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:15 am  

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

... Seriously, which part of "loosing ten million pounds a month" did the average Joe not understand? ...

The part where they do not believe it to be the truth, and believe rather that money is being shuffled around to enable such a claim.

Y'know – a bit like Starbucks claiming they don't make any profit in the UK.

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:43 am  

The bottom line is we are talking about people's jobs. Scotland's heavy industry, Ravenscraig, coal mines, Linwood, most shipyards are gone, although I fully expect that Grangemouth will continue,

I'd expect shortly that there will to be an announcement from Ineos welcoming the new and constructive attitude from the Unite Union ..... a moratorium of at least 6 months on the petro chemical plant closure.....and a photo opportunity of the Great and the Good in the rain, for all to express complete confidence in the future of Grangemouth......its strategic importance to Scotland....and a small impromptu press conference as each eagerly disclose their own crucial parts in resolving this debacle.

Ratcliffe will of course use the next 6 months to scew many more tens of millions out of a Uk/Scottish Government than has been whispered down a telephone line already, prior to confirming a permanent future for all of the plant....greatly improving his balance sheet to the chorus of shareholder's approval....and the remaining workforce will have long memories of their Unions complete routing.

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:12 am  

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

...and the remaining workforce will have long memories of their Unions complete routing.

By someone whose business practices are about as savoury as as a pile of dog poo?

Amazing what some people seem ready to applaud.

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:15 am  

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

The bottom line is we are talking about people's jobs. Scotland's heavy industry, Ravenscraig, coal mines, Linwood, most shipyards are gone, although I fully expect that Grangemouth will continue,

I'd expect shortly that there will to be an announcement from Ineos welcoming the new and constructive attitude from the Unite Union ..... a moratorium of at least 6 months on the petro chemical plant closure.....and a photo opportunity of the Great and the Good in the rain, for all to express complete confidence in the future of Grangemouth......its strategic importance to Scotland....and a small impromptu press conference as each eagerly disclose their own crucial parts in resolving this debacle.

Ratcliffe will of course use the next 6 months to scew many more tens of millions out of a Uk/Scottish Government than has been whispered down a telephone line already, prior to confirming a permanent future for all of the plant....greatly improving his balance sheet to the chorus of shareholder's approval....and the remaining workforce will have long memories of their Unions complete routing.

You trumpet that as if it's a good thing

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:17 am  

Mintball wrote:

The part where they do not believe it to be the truth, and believe rather that money is being shuffled around to enable such a claim.

Y'know – a bit like Starbucks claiming they don't make any profit in the UK.

This is completely irrelevant in this case. The company laid out their position, unless you think you can push them around - which McClusky quite clearly did - where the profits lay in the group is a complete red herring.

The company has done exactly what it said it would do - which would suggest the plant generates the poor returns the management suggested. Ratcliffe maybe a lot of things but a fool doesn't appear to be one of them.

A no strike agreement appears to work in the large car manufacturing plants so I am again unsure as to why all the concern, not surprised mind!!

At the end of the day if employees are not happy working for Ratcliffe no one is stopping them finding another job.

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:30 am  

Mintball wrote:

The part where they do not believe it to be the truth, and believe rather that money is being shuffled around to enable such a claim.

Y'know – a bit like Starbucks claiming they don't make any profit in the UK.

Plus ...consider this ...

Because the oil that the refinery uses is low in ethane, the byproduct that it sells to the petrochemical plant is allegedly dearer than they could buy-in from the US.
OK, that has a ring of plausibility about it.

But Ratcliffe is saying that if the petrochemical plant doesn't get £300m spent on it to be able to process the US product, then the refinery will also likely have to close.
Huh?
Is he effectively saying that the refinery that supplies something like 70% of Scotland's petrol will have to close if its byproduct customer doesn't stop buying that byproduct from it?
That does NOT have a ring of plausibility about it.

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:32 am  

Agreement reached.

Agreement reached.

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:37 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

This is completely irrelevant in this case. The company laid out their position ...

... which the union did not believe, saying that 'create accounting' was the reason that the company claimed it was losing money when it was not in reality.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... where the profits lay in the group is a complete red herring...

No, it's not. Any more than the use of vertical trading (if I remember the term correctly) is one of the reasons that domestic fuel bills are so high and the companies get to claim they're paying a fortune to wholesalers when they're actually pretty much paying it to themselves.

If the company is using creative accounting to manipulate its finances so that it can claim to be far worse off than it is, in order to shove down pay, pensions, terms & conditions etc, then it is light years away from being a "red herring".

Sal Paradise wrote:

... At the end of the day if employees are not happy working for Ratcliffe no one is stopping them finding another job.

Because it's a stonkingly brill market for someone hunting a job, isn't it? You don't live in "the real world", do you?

Re: Unite and Grangemouth : Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:48 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

...A no strike agreement appears to work in the large car manufacturing plants so I am again unsure as to why all the concern, not surprised mind!!...

We shall see what transpires but I'll be surprised if Ratcliffe goes down the workforce-consultation route that is common in the Japanese-originated car plants.
It doesn't seem to fit his style at all.

Sal Paradise wrote:

...At the end of the day if employees are not happy working for Ratcliffe no one is stopping them finding another job.

Aaah, I love the smell of Victorian Britain in the morning ...