Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Thu May 29, 2014 10:50 am  

Chris28 wrote:

Yes but how many? What kind of numbers are we talking about?

Well like I stated I personally would like a situation where our overall population gradually declines without any great upheavals.

However if we are going to allow increasing numbers into the country it's scandalous not to prepare the infrastructure first.

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Thu May 29, 2014 11:03 am  

Any discussion about immigration is almost impossible, as they are always hijacked by knee-jerkers from left or right, who have entrenched views and big mouths, coupled by no wish whatsoever to "discuss" anything, and want only to shout down the perceived opposition.

Then they have massed footsoldiers, who don't even understand the issues, nor want to, but have a very basic position) (eg immigrunts take all our jobs innit) and need to be accepted by their peers as in a particular bandwagon.

I don't worry about immigration. I do worry about the explosion in population, in various countries, and it happens that we live in one of the world's most highly populated countries. If we never had a single further immigrant I would worry if the trend was (say) for the population to increase by (say) 50% in 50 years. I wouldn't worry in a personal sense of course since I won't be here any more, but I worry in the sense that limited resources will become overstretched and run out if this should happen.

I don't worry about any given immigrant as individually, I would find it impossible to recognise one. How do I know that the lady in full black Islamic dress is not a 3rd or 4th generation Briton? How do I know that the white guy in casuals reading his iPhone on the bus isn't an illegal from eastern Europe who got out of a lorry yesterday? So why should I care?

If however we were due to get a million more like him every 6 months (say) indefinitely then I would definitely worry, not because of him personally, but because we don't have the room or the infrastructure or the resources.

If the lady had 7 or 8 children and was pregnant, that on an individual basis is up to her. If however in her immediate community, it was the norm for ladies to have large numbers of children, such that the trend was a significant and exponential increase in population locally, then I would worry, for the same reasons.

These worries would apply precisely equally for precisely the same reasons to the white man on the bus if similar numbers of similar east Europeans were similarly fathering large numbers of children.

I worry that in some countries on the planet there is an ongoing population explosion which shows no sign of abating and it is stating the obvious that if the population explosion continues then sooner or later there will be more mouths on Earth than Earth can cope with.

There are other more local issues, such as the nature of whole communities and areas being transformed by influx of immigrants, but these are nothing new nor are they peculiar to the UK, and are not necessarily a bad (or good) thing (for example certain areas of Spain being taken over by ex-pat Brits. However I think the reality is that most "arguments" against immigration are really no such thing, they are arguments that one section of the community doesn't like another section, and doesn't give a shhit whether or not they are "immigrants", but hates them because they are different. To the point where hatred can and does spill over into violence and even conflict. This is the hardest problem and I think intractable, but it isn't about "immigration", that is just a smokescreen for racism and sectarianism.

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Thu May 29, 2014 12:24 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

but it isn't about "immigration", that is just a smokescreen for racism and sectarianism.

We could leave the argument there

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Thu May 29, 2014 12:59 pm  

LeighGionaire wrote:

Well like I stated I personally would like a situation where our overall population gradually declines without any great upheavals.

However if we are going to allow increasing numbers into the country it's scandalous not to prepare the infrastructure first.

That is bang on. What worries (am i even worried? probably not!) me about immigration is the very inaccurate estimations about how many immigrants are here or are going to come here. Then when they do come into our population, do we have the right infrastructure to support such a growing population? Are they spreading out across the country evenly per head of population? or are they concentrating themselves into the three major or top ten conurbations? Is that a good/bad thing? Is there enough jobs for them? Are they coming here qualified enough to find jobs to support their families in such an expensive country? If not what is going to happen to them?

I am very open to immigrants coming to live and work here. But things have to be right here and on their part for it to keep working well, if you even think it is working at all.

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Thu May 29, 2014 3:04 pm  

Very many immigrants come here to end up living in squalid conditions and getting paid a fraction of the minimum wage. Many don't even get paid, other than a few quid, as the rest goes in "accommodation" etc., and repaying to criminals the price of their ticket into the UK.

The question of whether they are taking anyone's jobs doesn't arise, as no British person would work for those wages under those conditions, and the sweatshop of whatever sort would close rather than comply with any legislation.

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Thu May 29, 2014 3:59 pm  

I agree with FA, what does that make me?
Answers on a postcard please.

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Thu May 29, 2014 9:04 pm  

Stand-Offish wrote:

I agree with FA, what does that make me?
.

It makes you right.
HTH

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Thu May 29, 2014 11:26 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Any discussion about immigration is...

Cracking post.

Like FA I only "worry" about immigration in the context of population increase coupled with an unwillingness from government to invest in necessary infrastructure in the country.
For example, IIRC, the NHS needs roughly a 9% annual increase in funding to keep pace with a variety of issues (ageing population, new drugs/treatments etc) including population growth (which is why a flat NHS budget is effectively a 9% cut, compared to a historical average annual increase of 4% since 1950. The only time the NHS has consistently received an annual increase close to the 9% it needs was in the early 2000's, with an average annual increase of 8.8%).
Obviously other areas such as education, social & care services, police etc (& also transport which is often overlooked and chronically underfunded in my opinion) also need investment to deal with an increasing population.

I do also think there can be a problem with large groups of immigrants living in one area. In some cases it might not help in terms of "integration" but mainly it's because most immigrants are relatively poor and communities generally seem to do better when there is a mix of different "wealth states".
For example, my gran used to live in Harehills in Leeds. When she moved there in the mid 60's it was a decent place to live with a mixture of different wealth & social classes. Over time it's become populated mostly by immigrants (obviously most are British born now) and is now, to be frank, a bit of a dump. Not because most people who live there are immigrants (be it 1st/2nd/3rd etc generation) but because it's a poor area, no different to poor "non-immigrant" areas.
But seeing that area turn like that, along with the racist/extreme newspapers, fuelled my grans annoyance to the point where you could easily describe her as racist. Despite the facts I used to point out to her that the young paper boy who used to check on her and look after her came from an immigrant family and the person who broke into her house and stole her tv, money & cheque book was "British".
The combination of a once thriving area becoming run down and just a general sense of unease at any kind of change (the shops on the parade changed from traditional grocers/butchers/corner shops etc to halal meat shops etc) and then throw in the odd person dressed in a burka and a few inflammatory newspaper headlines...



IIRC approx 1/3rd of the UK's population growth is due to immigration. So even if we took an extreme UKIP approach and left the EU and closed the borders we'd still have a rising population. Just talking from an anecdotal point of view, it seems that people are having more children. For instance there were only a handful of people in my school year group who had more than 1 brother or sister and I'm willing to bet the birth rate has increased quite a bit.

I'm not sure what all the answers are and maybe some EU rules need changing or adapting, but I don't think walling ourselves off from the world is the way to go, and leaving the EU at this stage is such a ridiculous suggestion that no political party who runs on that basis should be taken seriously. It's akin in seriousness to the MRLP's manifesto energy saving pledge to attach all cars with bungee ropes to save fuel on the return journey.
But I do think a government should react accordingly to the effects of its policies, and governments of all colours have been ignoring the effects of immigration and population growth in general on the UK infrastructure.
Also other policies, such as allowing/not discouraging companies to offer paltry wages and conditions (and associated use of recruitment agencies, zero/low hours contracts, no job security etc), has I'm sure led to more short term immigration, which governments have again ignored.

[John_D]

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Fri May 30, 2014 7:51 am  

If you worry about immigration into this country, do you also worry about the impact emigration from this country has on other countries? If not, why not?

Re: If You Worry About Immigration.. . . . . . : Fri May 30, 2014 8:16 am  

John_D wrote:

If you worry about immigration into this country, do you also worry about the impact emigration from this country has on other countries? If not, why not?

That's a bigger problem imo. In the industry I work in, over the last couple of years, I know people who have moved to Saudi Arabia, Libya, Angola and Australia because they can earn a lot more money over there. They were good earners, earning 40-50k plus overtime here and aside from the skills we have lost we have also lost probably lost over 100k in taxes going into this country, and that's between 6 people.

An obvious concern of immigration is whether we have the resources to cater for everyone. I'm going off topic slightly here but investing in shale gas projects in this country would almost end our energy problems over night. A fact that all these idiot protesters overlook. Just to put it into context, the company I work for has recently committed to a project that is, essentially, building a huge tank to store shale gas in. We are spending £300m on it, and we will import shale gas on ships from the US to use in our processes. Because it is much more plentiful and cheaper than North Sea gas it will have paid for itself in 6 years.