Re: British values : Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:55 pm  

Cibaman wrote:

Isn't Christ considered to be a prophet by Muslims? Just not on the same level as Mohammed?

Most religious conflicts seem to be more cultural rather than anything really to do with the religion.

I think that's a really good point. There are a lot of cultural and tribal factors besides the religious aspect

Re: British values : Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:23 pm  

Euclid wrote:

I think that's a really good point. There are a lot of cultural and tribal factors besides the religious aspect

Which is why "multi-culturalism" was a misguided mantra. Without integration, we will get bloodshed. As Simon Jenkins put it in article this evening, Gove's obsession with faith schools (but Gove doesn't seem sure about Muslim ones!) creates divisions and risks building a Northern Ireland-type situation here.

Re: British values : Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:51 pm  

Out of interest, Mr. Dally, how many people that you would regard to be other to you and your culture do you know well?

By well, I mean the names of their children, if they have any, you perhaps have shared food with them, maybe discussed the arts?

Re: British values : Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:06 am  

Euclid wrote:

Pakistan does not represent all of Islam any more than the Branch Davidians represented all of Christendom. ...

It think it does, many orders more. Branch Davidians were a tiny sect, surely you are not trying to compare compulsory national religions with minority closed sects? That's just not valid.

I don't need to start listing other countries where any religion other than Islam is inherently in conflict. That would be pretty much all of them, from Iran/Iraq through Saudi etc. It isn't helpful to pretend that this conflict, which is irreconcileable, doesn't exist.

Cibaman wrote:

Most religious conflicts seem to be more cultural rather than anything really to do with the religion.

Seriously?

Re: British values : Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:25 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

It think it does, many orders more. Branch Davidians were a tiny sect, surely you are not trying to compare compulsory national religions with minority closed sects? That's just not valid.

I don't need to start listing other countries where any religion other than Islam is inherently in conflict. That would be pretty much all of them, from Iran/Iraq through Saudi etc. It isn't helpful to pretend that this conflict, which is irreconcileable, doesn't exist.

Seriously?

To borrow Sandra's idea, I would be curious to know of your first hand experience of Muslim countries?

I would never suggest that Muslim countries are perfect, but my experience of Jordan, Kuwait and Abu Dhabi was certainly different from that regularly portrayed in the British (and American) media.

I'm sorry you missed the point of my comparison earlier.

Re: British values : Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:53 am  

Sandra The Terrorist wrote:

Out of interest, Mr. Dally, how many people that you would regard to be other to you and your culture do you know well?

By well, I mean the names of their children, if they have any, you perhaps have shared food with them, maybe discussed the arts?

Not entirely sure what the first sentence means. But I do know non-native Brits well and in the terms you state (although why would I talk about the arts?. Indeed, given how few people, other than family, I would claim to know well I would guess we're talking quite a high percentage of those!

Re: British values : Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:41 pm  

Euclid wrote:

To borrow Sandra's idea, I would be curious to know of your first hand experience of Muslim countries?

I don't see how that would be relevant. I know a lot about conditions on the Moon, or Mars, and could look up and find out a million times more, but have never been. Are you casting doubt on what the Pakistani Christians say about their situation in the link I posted? Would I have to have been a Christian living in Pakistan before I can accept that what they say is accurate? Do you have grounds to dispute what they say?

Are not the global experiences of entire sectors of a population of more relevance to this discussion than the limited and isolate experiences of one person, whether tourist or otherwise, which is not much more than anecdotal?

Euclid wrote:

I would never suggest that Muslim countries are perfect, but my experience of Jordan, Kuwait and Abu Dhabi was certainly different from that regularly portrayed in the British (and American) media.

I'm not aware of what picture you think is "regularly portrayed" as you don't say, nor how this differs from your experience. I am sure that the experience of Western tourists and workers is in many cases OK and equally that it is not representative of what conditions apply to the native population, all the more so away from the main business and tourism areas.

Re: British values : Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:47 pm  

Sorry you find personal experience to be so irrelevant.

Re: British values : Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:49 pm  

Dally wrote:

non-integration of many immigrants, children and grandchildren of immigrants into our society.

and you have evidence of this....?

Re: British values : Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:54 pm  

Interesting article today: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... equal.html

Interesting article today: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... equal.html