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I am with those above who pointed out the naivety of Durham Giant's comments.
On the news the other night there was VT evidence of a Hamas rocket being fired from a school. The Israeli's have asked that civilians leave northern Gaza. Those that have chosen to stay are being used as human shields and the media are lapping it up.
Of course war is terrible and innocents always suffer. But Israel has the right under international law to defend themselves when attacked. With their history it is understandable why they return fire with interest.
It is a big mess and it is most unlikely that there will be a peaceful solution. With the rest of the region either in or near a war zone I would not be surprised to see this latest clash develop and Israel send in their ground forces into Gaza and stay there.
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| Quote Dally="Dally"Seems a simple situation to me. The international community recognises Israel as a state. People (terrorists), whether you call them Hamas or whoever, attack them and Israel try to crush the attackers. The terrorists are, as I understand it, are funded by oil rich Arab states and that's why they are probably content to let innocent Palestinians get slaughtered. It's about time someone started dealing with the funders.'"
Do you mean those funders who are friends of the United States?  |
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| Quote Lovesauce="Lovesauce"Do you mean those funders who are friends of the United States?
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If Iran and Qatar are friends of the US, yes. |
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| Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"I don't disagree with much of your post but your post suggests that "The East" in general is expecting "The West" to solve the problem.
Why doesn't "The East" do something?
Has "The East" actually asked "the West" to intervene? What is the way to intervene which might stop the killing?
SNIP
'"
Welll Hamas are a terrorist organisation they cannot travel freely anywhere in the western world.
I feel i have evidenced significant examples of war crimes and " terrorism" by Israel.
Maybe if a few leaders in the west were to say that Benyamin Netanyahu Avigdor Lieberman and Benny Gantz were told they were not welcome in the west and could be arrested for poetential war crimes they might stop killing Palestinian kids  |
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| Quote Durham Giant="Durham Giant"Welll Hamas are a terrorist organisation they cannot travel freely anywhere in the western world.
I feel i have evidenced significant examples of war crimes and " terrorism" by Israel.
Maybe if a few leaders in the west were to say that Benyamin Netanyahu Avigdor Lieberman and Benny Gantz were told they were not welcome in the west and could be arrested for poetential war crimes they might stop killing Palestinian kids
'"
Clearly that wouldn't work as Hamas has killed Israeli children despite not being welcome in the West.
According to the UN, since 2000, the ratio of civilian to soldier deaths are roughly similar on both sides.
Israeli deaths - 69% civilian, 31% IDF
Palestinian - 59% civilian, 41% engaged in hostilities.
They're both as bad as each other. They (leaderships & followers) both are intransigent and reliant on the conflict to bolster and maintain their own positions and strengths.
It needs a powerful outside organisation to broker a deal. The only option is the Americans as the UN is too chaotic and toothless.
But the American (and most in the world) political system makes it almost impossible (or at least very difficult) for a US President to broker a deal that simultaneously puts significant pressure on Israel whilst providing the legitimate safeguards they'd want. |
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| Quote Him="Him"Clearly that wouldn't work as Hamas has killed Israeli children despite not being welcome in the West.
According to the UN, since 2000, the ratio of civilian to soldier deaths are roughly similar on both sides.
Israeli deaths - 69% civilian, 31% IDF
Palestinian - 59% civilian, 41% engaged in hostilities.
They're both as bad as each other. They (leaderships & followers) both are intransigent and reliant on the conflict to bolster and maintain their own positions and strengths.
It needs a powerful outside organisation to broker a deal. The only option is the Americans as the UN is too chaotic and toothless.
But the American (and most in the world) political system makes it almost impossible (or at least very difficult) for a US President to broker a deal that simultaneously puts significant pressure on Israel whilst providing the legitimate safeguards they'd want.'"
What is your source for those stats i cannot find them anywhere.
I would say that after 2005 those stats are completely wrong as Israel moved all of their citizens out of Gaza and built the walls all over the place. You also seem to be linking all the earlier incidents which did not involve Gaza at all such as bombings in jerusalem.
Since 2005 the death tolls have been significantly lopsided in respect of those who have died and those who who have been combatants or civilians.
None of this alters the fact that Hamas is still seen as the agressor and terrorist whilst Israel is the victim and the legitimate force. |
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I just realised those stats from the UN only went up to 2007.
But there are stats from BTSelem that show a similar rate both from 2000 to now and from more recent periods to now.
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| Quote Durham Giant="Durham Giant"Welll Hamas are a terrorist organisation they cannot travel freely anywhere in the western world.'"
Quote Durham Giant="yet in the same breath, Durham Giant"... Maybe if a few leaders in the west were to say that Benyamin Netanyahu Avigdor Lieberman and Benny Gantz were told they were not welcome in the west and could be arrested for poetential war crimes they might stop killing Palestinian kids
'"
So, removing the ability to "travel freely in the Western world" would be the thing that would stop the bombing. Like it has done with Hamas, you mean? |
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| Quote Chris28="Chris28"As opposed to say, Israel, who have just ignored a fair number of UN resolutions instead?
Both sides are as bad as each other. Politicians and/or terrorists, but its the innocent that suffer.'"
Isreal have actually broken 65 UN resolutions since 1950 and faced no punishment
Iraq broke 2 and were bombed to oblivion.
But then I wouldnt expect Saddo to know this given he gets his info from wiki, Sky news and BBC news
#opsavegaza
#gazaunderattack
@yourAnonCentral |
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| Quote Lebron James="Lebron James"Isreal have actually broken 65 UN resolutions since 1950 and faced no punishment
Iraq broke 2 and were bombed to oblivion.
But then I wouldnt expect Saddo to know this given he gets his info from wiki, Sky news and BBC news
#opsavegaza
#gazaunderattack
@yourAnonCentral'"
I did say they were as bad as each other if you read it properly. Meanwhile, keep following Joey Barton on Twitter and favouriting all his tweets. |
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For three years we have witnessed genocide being committed on a vast scale in Syria. an estimated 140K dead, millions forced into refugee camps, civilian areas being deliberately targeted for attacks by chemical weapons and poisonous gases, and the spectacle of Sunni Muslins happily slaughtering their Shia brothers.
And yet, not one crocodile tear is shed by the Durham Giants of this world. Not one wee Syrian flag is waved in protest. Not the slightest squeak from that motley band of perpetually offended.
I wonder why. no really.....
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| Quote rumpelstiltskin="rumpelstiltskin"For three years we have witnessed genocide being committed on a vast scale in Syria. an estimated 140K dead, millions forced into refugee camps, civilian areas being deliberately targeted for attacks by chemical weapons and poisonous gases, and the spectacle of Sunni Muslins happily slaughtering their Shia brothers.
And yet, not one crocodile tear is shed by the Durham Giants of this world. Not one wee Syrian flag is waved in protest. Not the slightest squeak from that motley band of perpetually offended.
I wonder why. no really.....'"
Not just that but a much more powerful US, UK et al killing thousands of Iraqis when not even threatened by them. Then calling the military personnel "heroes." |
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| Quote Saddened!="Saddened!"I did say they were as bad as each other if you read it properly. Meanwhile, keep following Joey Barton on Twitter and favouriting all his tweets.'"
Really? Is that the best you've got? I follow Joey Barton? Laughable. But what I would expect from you
#gazaunderattack
@youranonnews
#tangodown
#opisreal |
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Israeli soldier boasts on social media about how many children he killed yesterday.
countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/i ... ign=buffer
meanwhile, fresh from condemning the Israel attack on a UN School, 'murica decides to restock Israel with Ammunition. The great american corporate war machine rolls on.
#gazaunderattack
#tangodown
@YourAnonNews |
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Israeli soldier boasts on social media about how many children he killed yesterday.
countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/i ... ign=buffer
meanwhile, fresh from condemning the Israel attack on a UN School, 'murica decides to restock Israel with Ammunition. The great american corporate war machine rolls on.
#gazaunderattack
#tangodown
@YourAnonNews | |
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Quote Lebron James="Lebron James"Israeli soldier boasts on social media about how many children he killed yesterday.
countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/i ... ign=buffer
meanwhile, fresh from condemning the Israel attack on a UN School, 'murica decides to restock Israel with Ammunition. The great american corporate war machine rolls on.
#gazaunderattack
#tangodown
@YourAnonNews'"
Ba, lets all be sheep. The Israeli's are attacking children, ba, ba, ba. Interestingly, I have not heard that reported anywhere in the mainstream media, it doesn't look a very comprehensively researched article and there is no proof any of it is in any way genuine. Not saying it's not, the Israeli army are under severe pressure and one soldier acting in a mindless way wouldn't be a surprise, there have been similar examples of boasting servicemen in pretty much all conflicts that have been reported on in recent times.
Why don't you answer the question of why Hamas put their terrorists into schools to fire the rockets in the first place? Ultimately isn't the blood on their hands when the missile comes the other way and hits where they fired from? |
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Quote Lebron James="Lebron James"Israeli soldier boasts on social media about how many children he killed yesterday.
countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/i ... ign=buffer
meanwhile, fresh from condemning the Israel attack on a UN School, 'murica decides to restock Israel with Ammunition. The great american corporate war machine rolls on.
#gazaunderattack
#tangodown
@YourAnonNews'"
Ba, lets all be sheep. The Israeli's are attacking children, ba, ba, ba. Interestingly, I have not heard that reported anywhere in the mainstream media, it doesn't look a very comprehensively researched article and there is no proof any of it is in any way genuine. Not saying it's not, the Israeli army are under severe pressure and one soldier acting in a mindless way wouldn't be a surprise, there have been similar examples of boasting servicemen in pretty much all conflicts that have been reported on in recent times.
Why don't you answer the question of why Hamas put their terrorists into schools to fire the rockets in the first place? Ultimately isn't the blood on their hands when the missile comes the other way and hits where they fired from? | |
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Quote Saddened!="Saddened!"Ba, lets all be sheep. The Israeli's are attacking children, ba, ba, ba. Interestingly, I have not heard that reported anywhere in the mainstream media, it doesn't look a very comprehensively researched article and there is no proof any of it is in any way genuine. Not saying it's not, the Israeli army are under severe pressure and one soldier acting in a mindless way wouldn't be a surprise, there have been similar examples of boasting servicemen in pretty much all conflicts that have been reported on in recent times.
Why don't you answer the question of why Hamas put their terrorists into schools to fire the rockets in the first place? Ultimately isn't the blood on their hands when the missile comes the other way and hits where they fired from?'"
Before I answer your question, let me just ask you a quick question. How do you know Hamas fire rockets from their schools? In fact, I will answer that question for you. "Because the BBC/Sky reported it" (What the BBC and SKY havent reported is the fact that it has been proven the IDF have doctored photographs to justify bombing schools)
Did Hamas fire rockets from the beach, that led to Israeli gun boats slaughtering those young boys who were playing there?
Now, how do I know that Hamas dont fire rockets from schools? I dont. However, what I do know, is a turkish doctor I have known for over 7 years who has been in gaza the whole time and who is currently working along an absolute hero in Mads Gilbert. I speak to him as often as i can which is at the very least, every other day. I will take his word that Hamas do not fire rockets from schools or shelters over the lies of Israel. In fact, he was actually working at one of the hospitals recently bombed by Israel and has told me in 7 years he was worked in gaza, not once has any rocket been fired from that hospital.
What do you make of the UN, thats the United Nations, telling Israel not to bomb the UN school they bombed yesterday, 17 times. Yes, Israel were warned 17 times, but they still do it.
Here is a letter from foreign doctors working in Gaza
stopwar.org.uk/news/open-letter- ... 9ocv-NdX0c
So you tell me, who are the real terrorists here?
#gazaunderattack
@YourAnonNews |
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Quote Saddened!="Saddened!"Ba, lets all be sheep. The Israeli's are attacking children, ba, ba, ba. Interestingly, I have not heard that reported anywhere in the mainstream media, it doesn't look a very comprehensively researched article and there is no proof any of it is in any way genuine. Not saying it's not, the Israeli army are under severe pressure and one soldier acting in a mindless way wouldn't be a surprise, there have been similar examples of boasting servicemen in pretty much all conflicts that have been reported on in recent times.
Why don't you answer the question of why Hamas put their terrorists into schools to fire the rockets in the first place? Ultimately isn't the blood on their hands when the missile comes the other way and hits where they fired from?'"
Before I answer your question, let me just ask you a quick question. How do you know Hamas fire rockets from their schools? In fact, I will answer that question for you. "Because the BBC/Sky reported it" (What the BBC and SKY havent reported is the fact that it has been proven the IDF have doctored photographs to justify bombing schools)
Did Hamas fire rockets from the beach, that led to Israeli gun boats slaughtering those young boys who were playing there?
Now, how do I know that Hamas dont fire rockets from schools? I dont. However, what I do know, is a turkish doctor I have known for over 7 years who has been in gaza the whole time and who is currently working along an absolute hero in Mads Gilbert. I speak to him as often as i can which is at the very least, every other day. I will take his word that Hamas do not fire rockets from schools or shelters over the lies of Israel. In fact, he was actually working at one of the hospitals recently bombed by Israel and has told me in 7 years he was worked in gaza, not once has any rocket been fired from that hospital.
What do you make of the UN, thats the United Nations, telling Israel not to bomb the UN school they bombed yesterday, 17 times. Yes, Israel were warned 17 times, but they still do it.
Here is a letter from foreign doctors working in Gaza
stopwar.org.uk/news/open-letter- ... 9ocv-NdX0c
So you tell me, who are the real terrorists here?
#gazaunderattack
@YourAnonNews | |
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Whilst plenty of Israel's military actions deserve condemnation, that "article" about the Israeli soldier isn't as you've made out Lebron. It goes on to say it's likely not true.
He's a soldier in an engineering unit. He's not a sniper. There is no way he'd be using, or probably even able to use, that weapon.
Sounds like an idiot making things up on twitter to try and prove how much he hates the enemy.
So whilst his views are abhorrent, there is no evidence to show he killed 13 children and plenty of evidence to show he's a lying idiot who should be disciplined by the IDF.
You also can't take 1 person's idiocy and apply it to the whole organisation. It'd be like saying every British Army soldier is as cold-blooded/stupid as those who murdered a wounded Taliban fighter.
That kind of thinking ie all Israelis want to kill Palestinian children or conversely all Palestinians want to drive Israelis into the sea, is partly the entire problem in a nutshell. If there were a bit less of that kind of reactionary thinking and bit more of calmly dealing with the mess on both sides then there'd be a much better chance of peace.
The RL equivalent is that all Salford players are stupid as Gareth Hock.
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| Quote Him="Him"Whilst plenty of Israel's military actions deserve condemnation, that "article" about the Israeli soldier isn't as you've made out Lebron. It goes on to say it's likely not true.
He's a soldier in an engineering unit. He's not a sniper. There is no way he'd be using, or probably even able to use, that weapon.
Sounds like an idiot making things up on twitter to try and prove how much he hates the enemy.
So whilst his views are abhorrent, there is no evidence to show he killed 13 children and plenty of evidence to show he's a lying idiot who should be disciplined by the IDF.
You also can't take 1 person's idiocy and apply it to the whole organisation. It'd be like saying every British Army soldier is as cold-blooded/stupid as those who murdered a wounded Taliban fighter.
That kind of thinking ie all Israelis want to kill Palestinian children or conversely all Palestinians want to drive Israelis into the sea, is partly the entire problem in a nutshell. If there were a bit less of that kind of reactionary thinking and bit more of calmly dealing with the mess on both sides then there'd be a much better chance of peace.
The RL equivalent is that all Salford players are stupid as Gareth Hock.'"
 Well said. |
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| Quote Lebron James="Lebron James"
Now, how do I know that Hamas dont fire rockets from schools? I dont. However, what I do know, is a turkish doctor I have known for over 7 years who has been in gaza the whole time and who is currently working along an absolute hero in Mads Gilbert. I speak to him as often as i can which is at the very least, every other day. I will take his word that Hamas do not fire rockets from schools or shelters over the lies of Israel. In fact, he was actually working at one of the hospitals recently bombed by Israel and has told me in 7 years he was worked in gaza, not once has any rocket been fired from that hospital.
What do you make of the UN, thats the United Nations, telling Israel not to bomb the UN school they bombed yesterday, 17 times. Yes, Israel were warned 17 times, but they still do it.'"
I hold no views on either side of the fence other than shake my head at the perpetual human response to want to protect territory from what they perceive as aliens, slightly simpler to understand when ours is an island nation, more difficult to comprehend when the land is partitioned by humans into seemingly random chunks.
However,
I also wonder why Hamas would want to fire a handful of rockets from within a school playground for the reason stated by the Israeli government that "it offers them protection" when in fact the rocket launching equipment that they are using is simple and portable, the very fact that we are to believe that they set up in a playground is proof of this - the truth is that you can launch your rocket from anywhere and then almost be gone by the time they land - why would you need to avail yourself of protection from retaliation when you aren't going to be there within a few minutes of arriving ? |
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| Quote JerryChicken="JerryChicken"I hold no views on either side of the fence other than shake my head at the perpetual human response to want to protect territory from what they perceive as aliens, slightly simpler to understand when ours is an island nation, more difficult to comprehend when the land is partitioned by humans into seemingly random chunks.
However,
I also wonder why Hamas would want to fire a handful of rockets from within a school playground for the reason stated by the Israeli government that "it offers them protection" when in fact the rocket launching equipment that they are using is simple and portable, the very fact that we are to believe that they set up in a playground is proof of this - the truth is that you can launch your rocket from anywhere and then almost be gone by the time they land - why would you need to avail yourself of protection from retaliation when you aren't going to be there within a few minutes of arriving ?'"
They are also storing mortars, rockets and guns in UN schools. This has been proven by both the Israeli's and the UN themselves. The UN are a mess, chaotic rabble that has no real control. The Hamas fighters are fighting their entire battle from residential areas. They store, use and move, all within the areas people live.
A mess in which both are as bad as each other and which needs to be sorted by the wider world. If only the major powers could get round a table and talk about it. |
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| Quote Saddened!="Saddened!"They are also storing mortars, rockets and guns in UN schools. This has been proven by both the Israeli's and the UN themselves. The UN are a mess, chaotic rabble that has no real control. The Hamas fighters are fighting their entire battle from residential areas. They store, use and move, all within the areas people live.
A mess in which both are as bad as each other and which needs to be sorted by the wider world. If only the major powers could get round a table and talk about it.'"
No surprise at all that they are fighting from within residential areas given the confinement of their "lands", as you say, a complete mess which will only be solved when both sides recognise that the other are not enemies but neighbours, and also only solved when such governments no longer have easy access to international weapon manufacturers who have no regard to where their products are being used or to what effect they are being put to - quite surprising that no-one ever asks such questions of the manufacturers, its probably the only business in the world where you aren't responsible for what your product does. |
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"The UN are a mess, chaotic rabble that has no real control." As a member of the UN (an importnat one) have we let this happen?
I fear for myself. I live in a Muslim area and the emotions are very high. Young men are stirred up to the extent a discussion is impossible: as an ex-History teacher they do want to raise the matter with me but there is no discussion as yet.
Note to FA: the Tamil suicide bombers were often atheists or did not believe in an afterlife.
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| Quote Dally="Dally"Not just that but a much more powerful US, UK et al killing thousands of Iraqis when not even threatened by them. Then calling the military personnel "heroes."'"
Surely most people can differentiate the use of military force to implement current political policy, and the individual actions of a soldier?
When a soldier steps through the gate of a FOB, they know it is a lottery as to which one in the patrol steps on an IED, or is the one which is picked out by a sniper. And yet Dally, they have the balls to do that for everyday of their 6 month tour. Something you may consider when next you are bitchin to Mrs D about the congestion you faced on your drive home.....
And speaking of bitches, where is Durham Giant with some answers to the points I raised re Syria? |
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| Quote Hillbilly_Red="Hillbilly_Red"...
Note to FA: the Tamil suicide bombers were often atheists or did not believe in an afterlife.'"
You clearly have a point buried somewhere in your head that you want to get out, if you are ever able to explain what it is, please feel free. |
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| Quote Hillbilly_Red="Hillbilly_Red""The UN are a mess, chaotic rabble that has no real control." As a member of the UN (an importnat one) have we let this happen?
I fear for myself. I live in a Muslim area and the emotions are very high. Young men are stirred up to the extent a discussion is impossible: as an ex-History teacher they do want to raise the matter with me but there is no discussion as yet.
Note to FA: the Tamil suicide bombers were often atheists or did not believe in an afterlife.'"
Do you live in England? |
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Well said.
