Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:27 am  

Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up

Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:09 pm  

cod'ead wrote: Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up Mazzucato is always a good read. Unfortunately, economists like him are rarely involved in formulating economic policy. A more 'neo-classical' or 'distorted Keynesian' approach is favoured.

cod'ead wrote: Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up Mazzucato is always a good read. Unfortunately, economists like him are rarely involved in formulating economic policy. A more 'neo-classical' or 'distorted Keynesian' approach is favoured.

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:55 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

It's a mistake to use any kind of -ism to describe what's happening. By doing so you fall into the trap of ideological zealotry which only ever results in interminable and counter-productive societal divisions.

These people have no ideology other than whatever-it-takes-to-get-what-I-want.

Just because you live in a developed Western state where the Catholic church's influence is relatively small don't for one minute think this is representative of the whole.

The overwhelming majority of Catholics live in societies where the church is a major political force. Take South America for instance. For the best part of forty years the Catholic church has been the only force in politics which has not only stood up to US aggression - it actually went on the offensive. At one point the Liberation Theology movement became such a thorn in Washington's side the US State Department actually pressured the Vatican under Pope John Paul into distancing itself from LT's socio-political position.

Ratzinger did his best to shore up the traditionalist bloc during his time but as stated, this was an internal struggle within the church which had been threatening to boil over for some time now.

The moment Ratzinger stood down the Jesuits were ready and with the election of Pope Francis the damn has finally broke.

If there's one thing which terrifies big business even more than state governments its a militant church. There's a reason these institutions have survived intact for thousands of years. Think about it - there isn't a social, political or philosophical movement which has EVER EXISTED which can match what the church provides - salvation in the afterlife.

Sure, it's baloney. But it's the most seductive baloney ever devised. It appeals to an inner fear all of us experience in some form or another in life. I mean, who wants it all to end with their last breath? And as they say ... "No atheists in the foxholes". Powerful voodoo.

So yes - a Papal Encyclical means something - and to a great many people. Perhaps we won't see much direct effect here in the UK. But you can bet your behind it means problems for corporations who rely on the exploitation of the poor all across the globe - the indirect effects of which we would certainly feel here.

I agree, it would certainly cause a stir but, we all know what happens when those pesky South Americans try and reclaim their economic freedom...

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:33 pm  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33521235 Of course, you'd expect people to be going to prison, right? Don't be ridiculous.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33521235 Of course, you'd expect people to be going to prison, right? Don't be ridiculous.

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:49 pm  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33521235

Of course, you'd expect people to be going to prison, right?

Don't be ridiculous.

A slap on the wrist and as you were.

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:40 pm  

cod'ead wrote: Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up There are many respected economist many of whom have differing views. However in this case Mazzucato's overview does not go against the points I made. I am not taking sides in this as I see the EU being at greater fault while Greece is far from blameless. EU Failures 1. The EU should never have launched the single currency without fiscal and monetary union for those countries that wanted to join. 2. Had the EU conducted a proper audit it would never have let Greece into the flawed Euro in the first place 3. The EU compounded this error (2) by bailing out Greece instead of assisting it to leave the single currency 5 years ago. 4. The EU then made a second bail out effectively throwing good tax payers money after bad. 5. The EU did not ensure that the necessary reforms that Greece signed up to were in fact carried out so leaving the Greek people with the pain of austerity but with no hope of freeing up the economy and boosting tax revenues. 6. As economies across Europe collapsed, the European Central Bank acted in the interest of rich northern countries like Germany and against the interest of poorer southern countries like Greece, and the Greek people paid the cost. 6. European Central Bank's monetary policy works for the rich norther European countries who are not too concerned that it could be causing a depression in Greece. 7. The EU must realise that Greece can never repay the debit under the current conditions. Greek failures 1. Greece has been poorly served for decades by a succession of irresponsible governments who to win support have created public sector jobs with unrealistic pay and conditions with way over generous pensions. 2. The financial crisis revealed that the Greek government had been, for years, borrowing more than it reported publicly Greece chose to evade the rules and borrow money under the radar to enable more spending. 3. Tax evasion amounted to half of the 2008 deficit and a third of the 2009 deficit (12.7% of GDP) True income of the average Greek person is 92% higher than declared to the taxman. (2012 study) 4. A failure to live on its promises has produced a breakdown in trust with its EU partners. Only 5 of the 12 planned IMF reviews under the current programne were completed, and only one has been completed since mid-2013, because of a failure to complete reforms. 5. The Syriza government was elected on a promise it had no chance of keeping. So this has been a problem brewing up for years on both sides and the economic crash brought out all the fault lines in the EU and the single currency and also in black economy countries like Greece.

cod'ead wrote: Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up There are many respected economist many of whom have differing views. However in this case Mazzucato's overview does not go against the points I made. I am not taking sides in this as I see the EU being at greater fault while Greece is far from blameless. EU Failures 1. The EU should never have launched the single currency without fiscal and monetary union for those countries that wanted to join. 2. Had the EU conducted a proper audit it would never have let Greece into the flawed Euro in the first place 3. The EU compounded this error (2) by bailing out Greece instead of assisting it to leave the single currency 5 years ago. 4. The EU then made a second bail out effectively throwing good tax payers money after bad. 5. The EU did not ensure that the necessary reforms that Greece signed up to were in fact carried out so leaving the Greek people with the pain of austerity but with no hope of freeing up the economy and boosting tax revenues. 6. As economies across Europe collapsed, the European Central Bank acted in the interest of rich northern countries like Germany and against the interest of poorer southern countries like Greece, and the Greek people paid the cost. 6. European Central Bank's monetary policy works for the rich norther European countries who are not too concerned that it could be causing a depression in Greece. 7. The EU must realise that Greece can never repay the debit under the current conditions. Greek failures 1. Greece has been poorly served for decades by a succession of irresponsible governments who to win support have created public sector jobs with unrealistic pay and conditions with way over generous pensions. 2. The financial crisis revealed that the Greek government had been, for years, borrowing more than it reported publicly Greece chose to evade the rules and borrow money under the radar to enable more spending. 3. Tax evasion amounted to half of the 2008 deficit and a third of the 2009 deficit (12.7% of GDP) True income of the average Greek person is 92% higher than declared to the taxman. (2012 study) 4. A failure to live on its promises has produced a breakdown in trust with its EU partners. Only 5 of the 12 planned IMF reviews under the current programne were completed, and only one has been completed since mid-2013, because of a failure to complete reforms. 5. The Syriza government was elected on a promise it had no chance of keeping. So this has been a problem brewing up for years on both sides and the economic crash brought out all the fault lines in the EU and the single currency and also in black economy countries like Greece.

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:17 pm  

cod'ead wrote: Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up Very interesting piece that shows EEC for what it is - a vehicle for German economic, fiscal and political power.

cod'ead wrote: Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up Very interesting piece that shows EEC for what it is - a vehicle for German economic, fiscal and political power.

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:20 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Very interesting piece that shows EEC for what it is - a vehicle for German economic, fiscal and political power.

But as ever Germany's thirst for power will result in its eventual downfall. Either it forces fiscal and economic harmonisation in the EZ or it sows the seeds for its own slow destruction. Rightly so too.

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:01 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

It'll be interesting to see what happens at the UN Climate Change Summit hosted in France this year. Whilst the news has spent very little time covering it Pope Francis is right now threatening to declare the entire corporate-capitalist model responsible for potentially catastrophic climate change.

The significance of this threat cannot be over-stated. In Britain we love to declare religion dead but the truth of the matter is that ever since Pope John Paul embarked on his highly-successful global recruitment campaign the Catholic Church has swelled its ranks to bursting point.

Previously the Vatican has taken something of an inconsistent stance on the issue of capitalism and its consequences. But the stepping down of Pope Benedict in favour of Pope Francis is the consequence of an internal battle which has been raging within the Vatican for the best part of twenty years. Francis is the first member of the Jesuit order to become Pope. This is significant because the Jesuit order really has been at the forefront of anti-capitalist sentiment for many years now.

If these talks fail Francis has let it be known that he will sign off on a Papal Encyclical declaring the entire system of global capitalism "Sinful". I really can't stress just how mind-boggling this warning is. Popes are not in the habit of making idle threats. Upon signing such a declaration papal law dictates that it must be distributed immediately among all approx. 1.2 BILLION Catholics around the globe.

Who'd have thought the Pope would turn asskicker and take the fight to Capitalism draped in ammunition belts and dual-wielding M60s?

"They drew first blood. Not me!" Brrrr!!! Brrrrr!!!!! Brrrrrr!!!! Brrrrr!!!!"

Elderly left-winger denounces capitalism...big deal.

If the people in Latin America wish to reverse the socio-economic progress that they have made in the last 2 decades by listening to this blasphemous individual, who thinks that he rather than God can decide what is sinful or not, that is up to them. What the likes of left-wingers such as Pope Francis or Len Mccluskey say is of no relevance to us in the West and has no bearing on what is objectively true.

Re: Anti- Austerity Doctrine Not Working : Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:07 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

There are many respected economist many of whom have differing views. However in this case Mazzucato's overview does not go against the points I made.

I am not taking sides in this as I see the EU being at greater fault while Greece is far from blameless.

EU Failures
1. The EU should never have launched the single currency without fiscal and monetary union for those countries that wanted to join.
2. Had the EU conducted a proper audit it would never have let Greece into the flawed Euro in the first place
3. The EU compounded this error (2) by bailing out Greece instead of assisting it to leave the single currency 5 years ago.
4. The EU then made a second bail out effectively throwing good tax payers money after bad.
5. The EU did not ensure that the necessary reforms that Greece signed up to were in fact carried out so leaving the Greek people with the pain of austerity but with no hope of freeing up the economy and boosting tax revenues.
6. As economies across Europe collapsed, the European Central Bank acted in the interest of rich northern countries like Germany and against the interest of poorer southern countries like Greece, and the Greek people paid the cost.
6. European Central Bank's monetary policy works for the rich norther European countries who are not too concerned that it could be causing a depression in Greece.
7. The EU must realise that Greece can never repay the debit under the current conditions.

Greek failures
1. Greece has been poorly served for decades by a succession of irresponsible governments who to win support have created public sector jobs with unrealistic pay and conditions with way over generous pensions.
2. The financial crisis revealed that the Greek government had been, for years, borrowing more than it reported publicly Greece chose to evade the rules and borrow money under the radar to enable more spending.
3. Tax evasion amounted to half of the 2008 deficit and a third of the 2009 deficit (12.7% of GDP)
True income of the average Greek person is 92% higher than declared to the taxman. (2012 study)
4. A failure to live on its promises has produced a breakdown in trust with its EU partners. Only 5 of the 12 planned IMF reviews under the current programne were completed, and only one has been completed since mid-2013, because of a failure to complete reforms.
5. The Syriza government was elected on a promise it had no chance of keeping.

So this has been a problem brewing up for years on both sides and the economic crash brought out all the fault lines in the EU and the single currency and also in black economy countries like Greece.

Why is it everybody blames the financial crisis on banks and governments? It is people who chose to borrow money from the banks that they could not afford to pay back. It is people who voted for governments in the likes of Greece who promised to borrow money to fund the public sector. At the end of the day all that the banks and the governments of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, France, UK etc did was give people what they wanted.

The financial crisis was caused by the greed and irresponsibility of ordinary people. Every single person who defaulted on their mortgage or couldn't pay off their credit card bills or didnt pay off their overdrafts or voted for political parties that promised to spend billions on the public sector through borrowing money should accept responsibility rather than trying to blame others. They should also apologise to the young for it is the young who have suffered the most from the crisis and who will be paying off the debts of their parents and grandparents for the rest of their lives.