Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:16 am  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

I was always going to vote for leave so the economic/immigration arguments over the last few weeks haven't swayed me. I partly voted with heart over head, there may be a period of economic uncertainty but at least we will be free and democratic(ish).

Genuine question: in what way were you not free before?

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:24 am  

To all those sore losers among the younger generations, I say this: we were taken into what is the EU by the Tory party on a campaign of lies, we were given a referendum in 1975 (under Labour) and that campaign was based on a project fear almost identical this times'. Politicians, especially the Tory party, then spent the next 40 years blaming all their incompetence on 'Europe' whilst still signing us up to Maastrict, etc. Is it any wonder that people you have seen and heard all this wanted out?

Also, it is clear that a lot of younger working class people voted out.

But if you want to blame somebody or something, blame a Tory party lead by two inexperienced, arrogant, overgrown school boys. Blame the most incompetent PM in post- war British history. He did not learn his lesson from the Scottish referendum. He offered a referendum on the EU in the Election manifesto to appease part of his party and see off UKIP voters in the expectation of losing that election. When he got a surprise win, did he not think it may have been in large part due to the referendum pledge? Clearly not, as he thought it would be a walk over and that with the Tory parry's usual divisive, divide and rule policies, the creation of a feeling of general insecurity among the population and a project fear it would be a walk over. But an out of touch PM misjudged things big time.

So if you are cut up about this and young, make yourself a solemn promise -NEVER vote Tory in the rest of your life. If you do, you will see economic incompetence, increased public borrowings and decreased public services, sleaze, arrogance and embarrassment. That has been the pattern during my life to date and I do not expect it to change anytime soon.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:57 pm  

Dally I agree with your post but wish to add that the electorate would probably agree with you if there was a viable party to place their x against. By comparison the other parties are weak and until they all get themselves party leaders with coherent message then the status quo will prevail....

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:47 pm  

Leyther Paul Mason get it -- But – and this is the final mindset shift we in Labour must make – free movement is over. Free movement was a core principle of the EU, developed over time. We are no longer part of that, and to reconnect with our voting base – I don’t mean the racists but the thousands of ordinary Labour voters, including black and Asian people – we have to design a migration policy that works for them, and not for rip-off construction bosses or slavedrivers on the farms of East Anglia. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... xit-brexit

Leyther Paul Mason get it -- But – and this is the final mindset shift we in Labour must make – free movement is over. Free movement was a core principle of the EU, developed over time. We are no longer part of that, and to reconnect with our voting base – I don’t mean the racists but the thousands of ordinary Labour voters, including black and Asian people – we have to design a migration policy that works for them, and not for rip-off construction bosses or slavedrivers on the farms of East Anglia. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... xit-brexit

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:29 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Genuine question: in what way were you not free before?

Many of our laws are created by a group of unelected Eurocrats that we can't get rid of. The EU was only going to get more powerful, more integrated, ever growing. I believe that in the future it would become a superstate with the current countries being basically council areas. We would have no democratic powers to change it or have any real influence. It isn't a force for good.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:35 am  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

Many of our laws are created by a group of unelected Eurocrats that we can't get rid of.

Can you cite a few of these many laws created by 'unelected Eurocrats'?

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:45 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Can you cite a few of these many laws created by 'unelected Eurocrats'?

Do I need to? You know as well as I do that they exist. Alright, many of them might seem insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

We were heading towards a situation where the EU would become a fully functioning federal nation state. It already has a flag, an anthem, a parliament and a court that is superior to our own legal system.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:03 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote: Can you cite a few of these many laws created by 'unelected Eurocrats'? It's not an easy question to answer. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what ... uenced-eu/

The Ghost of '99 wrote: Can you cite a few of these many laws created by 'unelected Eurocrats'? It's not an easy question to answer. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what ... uenced-eu/

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:48 am  

Charlie Sheen wrote: It's not an easy question to answer. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what ... uenced-eu/ That shows, sort of, how to determine the amount of UK laws influenced by the EU. What about the second half of wigan_rlfc's oh-so certain statement: how many on the EU side didn't go through the elected European Parliament or get approval from our own elected UK government?

Charlie Sheen wrote: It's not an easy question to answer. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what ... uenced-eu/ That shows, sort of, how to determine the amount of UK laws influenced by the EU. What about the second half of wigan_rlfc's oh-so certain statement: how many on the EU side didn't go through the elected European Parliament or get approval from our own elected UK government?

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:08 am  

I don't always agree with Peter Hitchens, but he's spot on in both of his assessments of the Tory, and Labour front benches. https://youtu.be/LnCvl2T_o5o

I don't always agree with Peter Hitchens, but he's spot on in both of his assessments of the Tory, and Labour front benches. https://youtu.be/LnCvl2T_o5o