Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:12 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

So, what you're saying is - even if they offer peace (democratically agreed upon by just about all UN signatories with the exception of the usual suspects i.e. Israel, the United States and ... erm ... a couple of Pacific islands about to sink below the waves) - they have absolutely no right to defend themselves against an occupying force (defined as such by the very same democratic United Nations)

no, im saying that offering peace with one hand, whilst lobbing bombs at schools with the other makes you not good people. Im saying that talking of peace publicly, whilst calling for the destruction of another people isnt the actions of someone looking for peace. Im saying that if you do want peace, if you actually really and truly want peace, then deliberately provoking a larger power which brings horror to your own people isnt just stupid, its evil. Someone, somewhere will need to be the one to renounce violence if the cycle is ever to end. The Palestinians have as much responsibility for that as Israel.

Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian lands and in the process has murdered countless thousands of innocent Palestinians. For a person so wrapped up with the immorality of actions you seem remarkably willing to tolerate one party's over another's.

I tolerate and sympathise with both sides. I also see that both sides are being failed by their leadership. I dont see Israel as the aggressor and the Palestinians as the victim. Nor do I think is Israel is justified in everything they do. Unlike you I can see there are shades of grey, and i can also see that whilst ever the argument is about who is right and who is wrong, and not how can we solve the problem we will never move forward. It may make you feel good that you are supporting the little guy, it may make you feel nice to write a narrative about the brave little Palestinians and the mean nasty Israelis but it isnt true and doesnt help and only moves away from a positive outcome not towards it.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:18 pm  

Mugwump wrote: Why does Kosh continue to argue in opposition to The Facts? Would he be claiming parity of guilt for the Jews of the Warsaw uprising because they chucked a few bottles at the full might of the German army? And what facts might I have argued against, pray tell? I guess you missed the post where I specifically agreed that the invasion of Gaza depicted in your new favourite YT clip was an act of evil? You really ought to try paying attention in these threads of yours. Just for the sake of variety, like.

Mugwump wrote: Why does Kosh continue to argue in opposition to The Facts? Would he be claiming parity of guilt for the Jews of the Warsaw uprising because they chucked a few bottles at the full might of the German army? And what facts might I have argued against, pray tell? I guess you missed the post where I specifically agreed that the invasion of Gaza depicted in your new favourite YT clip was an act of evil? You really ought to try paying attention in these threads of yours. Just for the sake of variety, like.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:24 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

So, what you're saying is - even if they offer peace (democratically agreed upon by just about all UN signatories with the exception of the usual suspects i.e. Israel, the United States and ... erm ... a couple of Pacific islands about to sink below the waves) - they have absolutely no right to defend themselves against an occupying force (defined as such by the very same democratic United Nations)

They have every right. What they don't have a right to do - any more than Israel does - is deliberately target civilians.

Mugwump wrote:

For a person so wrapped up with the immorality of actions you seem remarkably willing to tolerate one party's over another's.

Oh. My. Word.

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:22 pm  

Kosh wrote:

And what facts might I have argued against, pray tell? I guess you missed the post where I specifically agreed that the invasion of Gaza depicted in your new favourite YT clip was an act of evil?

Whoa! You're back. I thought you'd disappeared up some sophist's alley attempting to EQUATE the suffering of an occupied, embargoed and nigh-on defenseless people with a that of an invading nuclear power which recently killed 400 civilians for every 1 casualty it suffered.

I'm glad you like my "new favourite YT clip". Indeed, both you and it together have re-affirmed my waning faith in man's ability to accept total demolition of argument through force of pure reason and still stay smiling.

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:42 pm  

Kosh wrote:

They have every right. What they don't have a right to do - any more than Israel does - is deliberately target civilians.

The Palestinians are in a fight or die situation. Just because you don't put on the uniform of the IDF and drop white phosphorous on Palestinian hospitals this DOES NOT mean you are totally free from all responsibility. Israel is very much a participatory democracy. And if you participate in the destruction of an entire people you have no RIGHT to expect the other side to walk calmly onto Israeli guns and leave you to enjoy the fruits of THEIR suffering.

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:43 pm  

Another gem from the good Dr. Finkelstein:

"In the course of the attack on Lebanon 18,000 to 20,000 Palestinians and Lebanese were killed. If you go to the Israeli web site - they post the number of Israelis who have been killed - or I should say Jews & Israelis killed - since the VERY BEGINNING OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, which they date from the 1860s. So from the 1860s to the present - a period of 140+ years - they give a figure for the total number of Jewish & Israelis causalities of 21,000. So it's 21,000 over a 140 year period. That figure includes all victims of terrorism, as well as all victims of the '48 war, '67 war, '73 war, 69-70 Suez war, the 1987 first Intafada, the second Intafada - the whole period of 140 years - 21,000 casualties vs. 21,000 casualties over a three and a month period. The major difference being Israelis casualties were overwhelmingly combatants whereas Palestinian casualties were overwhelmingly civilian."

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:44 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Whoa! You're back. I thought you'd disappeared up some sophist's alley attempting to EQUATE the suffering of an occupied, embargoed and nigh-on defenseless people with a that of an invading nuclear power which recently killed 400 civilians for every 1 casualty it suffered.

The relevance of ' nuclear ' capability to your argument is what exactly?

Maybe Hamas ( chosen to represent these defenseless people ) should consider their actions , only an idiot would poke a Tiger with a stick, but if you are poking the tiger while hiding behind women and children, I suppose thats ok

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:52 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

The Palestinians are in a fight or die situation. Just because you don't put on the uniform of the IDF and drop white phosphorous on Palestinian hospitals this DOES NOT mean you are totally free from all responsibility. Israel is very much a participatory democracy. And if you participate in the destruction of an entire people you have no RIGHT to expect the other side to walk calmly onto Israeli guns and leave you to enjoy the fruits of THEIR suffering.

And as you have so clearly stated, numerous times, Hamas is a democratically elected leadership, your argument works both ways.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:55 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Whoa! You're back. I thought you'd disappeared up some sophist's alley attempting to EQUATE the suffering of an occupied, embargoed and nigh-on defenseless people with a that of an invading nuclear power which recently killed 400 civilians for every 1 casualty it suffered.

I have a job. Sometimes it interferes with my ability to post on here.

I see your unfailing ability to completely miss the point of any opposing argument remains as razor sharp as ever. I hope you don't teach Critical Thinking.

Mugwump wrote:

I'm glad you like my "new favourite YT clip". Indeed, both you and it together have re-affirmed my waning faith in man's ability to accept total demolition of argument through force of pure reason and still stay smiling.

If you ever manage to demolish so much as the flimsiest argument through any method whatsoever I'll be sure and let you know. All you've demonstrated on this thread is an inability to even comprehend the argument you're supposed to be involved in.

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:56 pm  

Starbug wrote:

The relevance of ' nuclear ' capability to your argument is what exactly?

I'd have thought it obvious. Any nation that has demonstrated such low regard for the lives of an entire people (including dropping white phosphorous on the al-Quds hospital in Gaza during the last campaign) must be considered serious about using any weapon in its arsenal.