Re: Austerity gone too far? : Fri May 03, 2013 8:31 pm  

Standee wrote:

those who own least, stand to lose least.

Sin Bin and politics of envy, an unbreakable union.

When the questions get too tough, you repeat this ballocks.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Sun May 05, 2013 9:11 am  

Big Graeme wrote:

When the questions get too tough, you repeat this ballocks.

oh dear, I dont

I ask why people who want something for nothing think they are entitled to it.

but there's no balance here, so it's not really a discussion so much as a lecture from those that feel they know best.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Sun May 05, 2013 9:39 am  

Standee wrote:

oh dear, I dont

I ask why people who want something for nothing think they are entitled to it.

but there's no balance here, so it's not really a discussion so much as a lecture from those that feel they know best.

You always adopt this attitude when your arguments are comprehensively debunked, too.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Sun May 05, 2013 10:19 am  

Standee wrote:

oh dear, I dont

I ask why people who want something for nothing think they are entitled to it.

but there's no balance here, so it's not really a discussion so much as a lecture from those that feel they know best.

Then answer the question, it wasn't hard. You have gone off on a rant about something totally different.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Sun May 05, 2013 10:58 am  

Let's try to address the issues from a different angle.

It is now fairly generally accepted that:

1) the income gap has widened massively over the last 30 years, with incomes for all but those at the very top declining;

2) this is a problem – not least because, as The Spirit Level showed, wider inequality causes increased social problems.

Further to the latter point, lower income inequality works better for EVERYONE in a society – including those at the top end of it.

My interpretation of posters here is that few if any are asking for sacrifices from others in order to improve their own lives.

But if it is the case that lower income inequality works better for EVERYONE in a society, then:

• why would anyone not wish to do something about it, since it would be worth it even on the basis of enlightened self-interest alone;

• how do we go about doing something about it?

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Sun May 05, 2013 12:44 pm  

Standee wrote:

I ask why people who want something for nothing think they are entitled to it.

s'very simple, if you are low waged or unemployed then you ARE "entitled" to a government subsidy, lets call it a subsidy rather than "benefits" for what our government of all colours have done since WWII is ensure that no-one who lives in this country has to be in a situation where they cannot afford basic housing or a very basic standard of living.

Simple as that, you are entitled to these subsidies should you fall on hard times.

Sorry if you don't agree that that is equitable in a civilised society but there you are.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Sun May 05, 2013 4:16 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

s'very simple, if you are low waged or unemployed then you ARE "entitled" to a government subsidy, lets call it a subsidy rather than "benefits" for what our government of all colours have done since WWII is ensure that no-one who lives in this country has to be in a situation where they cannot afford basic housing or a very basic standard of living.

Simple as that, you are entitled to these subsidies should you fall on hard times.

Sorry if you don't agree that that is equitable in a civilised society but there you are.

I agree that we should not call it "benefits" but I disagree that it should be called a subsidy.

It should be called what it was originally called and what it is in reality: Social Security.

It is a compact between each individual at the time of their birth and the government of the day. It says: "you will, when you are able, make a suitable financial contribution and in return the government will ensure that your health will be looked after, free at point of need and the government will also ensure that you will not go hungry or without warmth and shelter". That is simply making people socially secure.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Sun May 05, 2013 4:26 pm  

Kosh wrote:

I've noticed that people who bang on about the 'politics of envy' actually display a deep envy of anyone who receives any state support whatsoever.

Capitalists talking about 'politics of envy' is hilarifookingous, I agree.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Tue May 07, 2013 10:12 am  

This "politics of envy" thing.
The only time I have ever claimed any kind of financial benefit was when I was unemployed, back in the early 1990s.

I am well paid and, apart from that period, I have enjoyed a good life.
I put this down to willingness, hard work, having the right skills at the right time, a decent state education and state health care ... and a generous dollop of luck.

I am not so arrogant as to think that I achieved a good life all by myself, because I didn't.
I have benefitted greatly from the NHS and State education (grammar school) which vastly improved my chances in life.

But I look around me and I see people who work hard, people who are willing to get up in the morning, people who take a pride in providing for their families but nonetheless amongst whom are people who need a hand, people who would rather not need that hand but need it anyway.
I believe that everyone should be paid a living wage ... the old saying "a fair day's work for a fair day's pay" but the market left to its own devices forces down some pay to levels where, no matter how hard you work, you can't save for a pension, buy a house or even afford insurance.
The idea that they should simply work harder is vacuous, they are already working hard, often at multiple jobs in an environment where applicants exceed jobs by about a ratio of six-to-one.
The market fails these people.
I regard it as our duty as a civilised society to help.

I am not envious of those richer than me.
Indeed, I look at those among them whose every waking thought is "Me, me, me" and I am glad that I am not living inside their heads.
I am glad that I can't look the other way to avoid seeing children suffer just so that I have a few extra quid to spend on stuff I don't need.
They will sneer about the rare examples of people fleecing the system, blinkering themselves to the true state of society.
I pity them.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Tue May 07, 2013 10:33 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

This "politics of envy" thing.
The only time I have ever claimed any kind of financial benefit was when I was unemployed, back in the early 1990s.

I am well paid and, apart from that period, I have enjoyed a good life.
I put this down to willingness, hard work, having the right skills at the right time, a decent state education and state health care ... and a generous dollop of luck.

I am not so arrogant as to think that I achieved a good life all by myself, because I didn't.
I have benefitted greatly from the NHS and State education (grammar school) which vastly improved my chances in life.

But I look around me and I see people who work hard, people who are willing to get up in the morning, people who take a pride in providing for their families but nonetheless amongst whom are people who need a hand, people who would rather not need that hand but need it anyway.
I believe that everyone should be paid a living wage ... the old saying "a fair day's work for a fair day's pay" but the market left to its own devices forces down some pay to levels where, no matter how hard you work, you can't save for a pension, buy a house or even afford insurance.
The idea that they should simply work harder is vacuous, they are already working hard, often at multiple jobs in an environment where applicants exceed jobs by about a ratio of six-to-one.
The market fails these people.
I regard it as our duty as a civilised society to help.

I am not envious of those richer than me.
Indeed, I look at those among them whose every waking thought is "Me, me, me" and I am glad that I am not living inside their heads.
I am glad that I can't look the other way to avoid seeing children suffer just so that I have a few extra quid to spend on stuff I don't need.
They will sneer about the rare examples of people fleecing the system, blinkering themselves to the true state of society.
I pity them.

Succinct and excellently put old bean.
I also pity them.