[DaveO]

Re: Zero hours contracts : Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:49 pm  

Dally wrote:

No. If demand suddenly spikes - eg a warm spell can create demand in many retail / service businesses then such contracts enable a business to meet demand without add a layer of costs they don't need most of the time.

They do but you know very well employers are not using zero hours contracts just to deal with seasonal variations.

Employers like McDonalds have no excuse for employing the vast majority of their outlet staff on zero hours contracts and certainly not the excuse of seasonal variations. The McDonalds in Chester and surrounding areas are open 7 days a week and at least one is open 24 hours. It's blindingly obvious they need permanent staff to run these outlets.

If employers behave in this clearly exploitative manner they should expect legislation to be forthcoming to stop it. If that means they lose some flexibility with curbs on zero hours contracts that would be their fault for abusing the system in the first place.

McDonalds won't shut up shop if they were forced into taking staff on permanently just as large corporations won't cease trading here if we closed the tax avoidance loopholes and it ought to be possible to devise legislation to allow seasonal workers such as students to get a temporary job which would suit both parties to cater for seasonal variations.

It's just like the minimum wage. There wouldn't be any need for that if employers would not exploit the fact they could pay next to nothing and it's the same here. If employers were only using zero hours contracts to employ seasonal workers to cover peaks or students looking for a Saturday job there wouldn't be a problem.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:56 pm  

Dally wrote:

No. If demand suddenly spikes - eg a warm spell can create demand in many retail / service businesses then such contracts enable a business to meet demand without add a layer of costs they don't need most of the time.

Nonsense.
They don't have to be zero-hours contracts, they simply need more hours worked in that rare circumstance, a flexibility easily accommodated in a contract, let's call it .... let me see ... how about occasional overtime?

[DaveO]

Re: Zero hours contracts : Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:57 pm  

Dally wrote:

Not bothered looking at your links re Labour as they don't appear to represent the leaderships stance?

How do you know if you haven't followed the links? FWIW they mirror what Ed M has had to say about zero hours contracts recently.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm  

DaveO wrote:

How do you know if you haven't followed the links? FWIW they mirror what Ed M has had to say about zero hours contracts recently.

So Ed M has spoken. What is Labour's official policy on the matter? Has is been stated categorically bearing in mind that this is apparently (see people's comments above) not an issue that needs to await the next election campaign to see what "the books" look like then. If there is no policy that whatever he has said is soundbite nonsense. If they have a strong policy why aren't they banging the drum now and offering proper opposition to a government who don't see it as an issue? Is it because Ed and Labour are pathetic and scared; dishonest; hypocritical; self-serving; or what?

Re: Zero hours contracts : Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:02 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Basically, that's saying that the hours-required get shared between a larger number of people at the moment than if the management could work out how many they really need.
Then you're saying that, if they couldn't fall back on zero-hours contracts, management would underestimate and lose business accordingly.

So, effectively, zero-hours are a way that ineffectual management can offload the risk onto employees.

Truth is that if that were the case then the fall-off in direct employment on zero hours would simply be taken up by Staff Agencies providing bodies on demand to those same companies, matching demand literally on a day to day basis.

And that is not actually such a bad thing as it sounds.

Part of my job involves visiting some of the country's largest agencies and most of the various account managers that I meet and eavesdrop on while in their premises spend most of their day ringing around employees on their books asking them if they are available tomorrow, or even this afternoon, and the pressure for those offices to retain their best and most available employees is high especially in some trades - I've been in an office that specialises in booking HGV drivers into clients and those drivers with certain types of experience can pick and choose which contracts they work on and how many hours they work.

Its an extremely competitive business, probably the most competitive that I have ever been involved with and when demand is high then the most valued employees can start to ask for certain inducements like guaranteed hours etc - certainly more so than if they were tied to just one employer.

[DaveO]

Re: Zero hours contracts : Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:04 pm  

Dally wrote:

So Ed M has spoken. What is Labour's official policy on the matter? Has is been stated categorically bearing in mind that this is apparently (see people's comments above) not an issue that needs to await the next election campaign to see what "the books" look like then.

Ed M has spoken out against them and Andy Burnham who is in the shadow cabinet has said he'd like them banned. These mirror comments made by those MP's in the links I gave and as I said one of them actually introduced a bill on the subject.

So it seems to me there is pretty uniform agreement from top to bottom in Labour these contracts are not good things.

If there is no policy that whatever he has said is soundbite nonsense.

Rubbish. The idea whenever Ed M voices his opposition to something it has to be backed up by being official Labour policy to carry any weight is ludicrous. The Opposition has every right to pressure the government on the issues of the day without having to set its position down in stone beforehand. That is how our democracy works and is one of the few luxuries of opposition.

Policy in political parties is set after due consideration (with in fact the notable exception of the coalition given the number of u-turns its had to make since coming to office) and if he said the instant this issue hit the headlines "its official Labour policy to ban zero hours contracts" he'd be accused of popularism.

Like it or not this is politics and Labour needs to work out how to deal with zero hours by coming up with sensible legislation that doesn't get them labelled anti-business but at the same time addresses the issue of firms like McDonalds. They aren't going to make this up on the hoof but in the meantime its quite legitimate for them to harangue the government over this issue.

Personally I'd like zero hours contracts banned but the politics unfortunately probably won't let Labour go as far as Burnham would like.

If they have a strong policy why aren't they banging the drum now and offering proper opposition to a government who don't see it as an issue? Is it because Ed and Labour are pathetic and scared; dishonest; hypocritical; self-serving; or what?

The government as in Vince Cable do supposedly see it as an issue. Labour's job is to make sure they see it as a big enough issue and if they come up with any limp wristed excuses as to why they aren't tackling it then Labour can have a go at them. Labour is not in power and so as with all opposition parties must wait and see what the governments hand is. In the meantime voicing strong opposition to zero hours contracts puts pressure on Cable and it doesn't need to be official policy to do that.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:27 pm  

Looks like it's going to court! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/legal-challenge-to-zero-hours-contracts-launched-against-sports-direct-8750104.html

Looks like it's going to court! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/legal-challenge-to-zero-hours-contracts-launched-against-sports-direct-8750104.html

Re: Zero hours contracts : Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:30 am  

You can support the case. 38degrees are backing it, and asking for £1 Over £10.000 raised so far https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/page/co ... a#petition

You can support the case. 38degrees are backing it, and asking for £1 Over £10.000 raised so far https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/page/co ... a#petition

Re: Zero hours contracts : Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:04 am  

DaveO wrote:

... The government as in Vince Cable do supposedly see it as an issue...

If Cable is involved we can expect swift and forceful supine inaction.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:43 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

If Cable is involved we can expect swift and forceful supine inaction.

He is the go-to man for all answers on all problems but has never had to test any of his solutions in reality.