Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:23 pm  

The people of the Crimea want to be in Russia, for me that is democracy in action. The Government should work for the people not the other way around. The people have spoken and they have what they want.
Similar to The Falklands and Gibraltar they want to stay British, so be it.

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:06 pm  

Wire Yed wrote:

The people of the Crimea want to be in Russia, for me that is democracy in action. The Government should work for the people not the other way around. The people have spoken and they have what they want.
Similar to The Falklands and Gibraltar they want to stay British, so be it.

I agree totally, Russia are well within their rights to do what they have done as we did with the Falklands.

However, will Latvia be next?

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:03 pm  

West Leeds Rhino wrote: Nice to see Cameron using the same yard stick, threatening sanctions, in Israel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26555893 even though Israel is continuing to invade and build on Palestinian land... Nevermind, the terrorists in the Gaza strip tossed a few rockets into Israel last week to make up for it.

West Leeds Rhino wrote: Nice to see Cameron using the same yard stick, threatening sanctions, in Israel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26555893 even though Israel is continuing to invade and build on Palestinian land... Nevermind, the terrorists in the Gaza strip tossed a few rockets into Israel last week to make up for it.

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:40 pm  

post wrote:

I agree totally, Russia are well within their rights to do what they have done as we did with the Falklands.

However, will Latvia be next?

Slight difference is that Russia have invaded Ukranian land - Argentina invaded British land, we went and got them back.

What Russia should have done is requested negotiation with Ukraine, stating their belief that the people of Crimea wanted to become Russian - Of course, politics always gets in the way and things aren't that simple.

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:52 pm  

Kelvin's Ferret wrote:

You're offspring is misguided about what a sovereign state is. Democracy or dictatorship is not really the issue either. What matters is power.

It cannot just be about power, otherwise it would be perfectly acceptable for those nations with power, for instance the USA and Russia, to invade and conquer their weaker neighbours as and when they feel like it. This would render the entire Westphalian system redundant.

National sovereignty refers to the right of nations to exercise the principle of self-determination in dealing with internal matters. A nation is not an abstract principle, it is a body of people with common blood, history, culture of language living in a particular geographical territory. National self-determination can therefore only exist when power lies in the hands of the people, not in the hands of one man.

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:06 pm  

Wire Yed wrote:

The people of the Crimea want to be in Russia, for me that is democracy in action.

It can't be that simple surely??..... What if in 10 or 20 year's time Bradford's population becomes overwhelmingly swayed towards people of Pakistani origin - If those people decided they felt more Pakistani than British and felt their own ideals were not that of Britain's, could those people apply for Pakistan to 'claim' Bradford?

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:25 pm  

I forgot the part in which we used to be the Asian Union not too long ago

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:27 pm  

David Titan wrote:

It cannot just be about power, otherwise it would be perfectly acceptable for those nations with power, for instance the USA and Russia, to invade and conquer their weaker neighbours as and when they feel like it. This would render the entire Westphalian system redundant.

National sovereignty refers to the right of nations to exercise the principle of self-determination in dealing with internal matters. A nation is not an abstract principle, it is a body of people with common blood, history, culture of language living in a particular geographical territory. National self-determination can therefore only exist when power lies in the hands of the people, not in the hands of one man.

To paraphrase Putin today, the West's idea of international "law" is just the law of the powerful.

You seem confused. You rightly say a nation is a body of people but then imply the people living within the borders of the Ukraine of last week are one nation. The whole point is a part of them (the majority in Crimea) are of the Russian nation and want to be part of Russia geographically. Russia in turn wants them.

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:16 am  

Wire Yed wrote:

The people of the Crimea want to be in Russia, for me that is democracy in action.

If Obama was asked by a journalist to choose between a pro-US dictatorship and an anti-US democracy, he'd answer by sending the journo to Guantanamo Bay.

Re: Hypocrisy Of The West Regarding Ukraine : Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:26 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

It can't be that simple surely??..... What if in 10 or 20 year's time Bradford's population becomes overwhelmingly swayed towards people of Pakistani origin - If those people decided they felt more Pakistani than British and felt their own ideals were not that of Britain's, could those people apply for Pakistan to 'claim' Bradford?

Argument doesn't really work. Bradford has never been part of Pakistan, and Pakistan has never made any claim on Bradford being part of Pakistan. Also, the people of Bradford with Pakistani origin are migrants or the descendents of migrants, they left one territory for another a long way away. Crimea on the other hand was part of the Russian Empire from 18th century and then it's successor the Soviet Empire in the 20th century, it was only ceded to Ukraine within the context of Ukraine also being part of that Soviet Empire. So it's existence outside of effective Russian control is a relevatively short post-Soviet experience.