Re: Boris Johnson : Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:52 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The point of the post is you will never get a perfect deal - it doesn't exist there are always compromises. Both sides need to agree what is important to them i.e. what they must have and what they would like to have and they are usually decided by impact on the whole - e.g. you wouldn't bet the farm but you might be willing to give in on some other elements of the deal because if it gets the deal done. The GFA maybe on of those elements that needs to be sacrificed to get the deal through for the bigger benefit of the whole?

In London the Police seem to have accepted young black people will continue to murder each other in an around East London which contains the violence into a designated area then enables them to concentrate resources into other more media-friendly activities.

Comparing "random" deaths on the streets of London, to sectarian murders in N. Ireland is just crazy (even if many of all of these are due to the drugs trade.
You appear to have stumbled on this comparison somewhere or other and believe it to be a justifiable reason for accepting a deal that will turn N. Ireland into some kind of killing fields and shame on you for doing so.
Maybe you're not old enough to remember the troubles but, for the sake of a "trade deal" ??? it would be utter lunacy.
It may be worth remembering that the N. Ireland "conflict" wasn't restricted to the border towns, most notably the Brighton bombing and the Warrington Pub bombing.
AS I said, disgusting that you would accept these types of incident under any circumstances and just to force through Brexit, is bloody disgusting.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Boris Johnson : Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:17 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The point of the post is you will never get a perfect deal - it doesn't exist there are always compromises. Both sides need to agree what is important to them i.e. what they must have and what they would like to have and they are usually decided by impact on the whole - e.g. you wouldn't bet the farm but you might be willing to give in on some other elements of the deal because if it gets the deal done. The GFA maybe on of those elements that needs to be sacrificed to get the deal through for the bigger benefit of the whole?

In London the Police seem to have accepted young black people will continue to murder each other in an around East London which contains the violence into a designated area then enables them to concentrate resources into other more media-friendly activities.

You’re right that it does just come down to personal perspective and priorities. And fair play, you’re very frank in acknowledging potential consequences of your compromise or sacrifice. It shows a remarkable, if somewhat scary, intellectual honesty. The one thing I will note about sacrificing the GFA, is that it gives the UK freedom to unilaterally define its position, but wouldn’t be a compromise with the EU - it’d be adopting a hardline stance that pretty much rules out a divorce deal. So you’d be getting a double whammy of political and economic turbulence.

The sacrifice i’d look to make is accepting a customs union for the whole UK. My hope being that this would garner support from the control-of-immigration Brexit constituency, as well as many who voted Remain in 2016. Fair enough, the regulatory independence, ‘sovereignty’ brexiteers won’t be happy (and they’re influential if maybe not so numerous). Plus and Truss will be denied a more prominent role on the international stage. But to me that is ‘price worth paying’ to avoid risking a return of the Troubles in NI, and significant economic damage. But then I don’t give a poop about the ideological purity of something I didn’t vote for, and where you see a benefit for the whole, I see costs for all.

Re: Boris Johnson : Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:40 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

You’re right that it does just come down to personal perspective and priorities. And fair play, you’re very frank in acknowledging potential consequences of your compromise or sacrifice. It shows a remarkable, if somewhat scary, intellectual honesty. The one thing I will note about sacrificing the GFA, is that it gives the UK freedom to unilaterally define its position, but wouldn’t be a compromise with the EU - it’d be adopting a hardline stance that pretty much rules out a divorce deal. So you’d be getting a double whammy of political and economic turbulence.

The sacrifice i’d look to make is accepting a customs union for the whole UK. My hope being that this would garner support from the control-of-immigration Brexit constituency, as well as many who voted Remain in 2016. Fair enough, the regulatory independence, ‘sovereignty’ brexiteers won’t be happy (and they’re influential if maybe not so numerous). Plus and Truss will be denied a more prominent role on the international stage. But to me that is ‘price worth paying’ to avoid risking a return of the Troubles in NI, and significant economic damage. But then I don’t give a poop about the ideological purity of something I didn’t vote for, and where you see a benefit for the whole, I see costs for all.

I would agree the customs union solves many issues but it is really the only bargaining chip the EU has and as such they will want something for it. The ability to do deals all over the world is great in theory but will take many years and the first deal that needs doing is a deal with the EU. Hammond has the right idea but there is no way the EU are going to allow the UK to leave when it wants and they will want other concessions - can a deal be done that saves face for both parties?

The troubles in Ireland towards the end were more about organised crime and same religion retribution than anything Catholics v Protestants. As said before we are happy to let inner-city young black men kill each other, we allow distribution of Class A drugs all over the country because the collateral damage is smaller than the investment required to stop it. Could the same be said of the GFA - it is no surprise the EU has raised its profile disproportionately.

An article in the Spectator today suggests the German economy would really struggle from a no deal exit for the UK - perhaps Boris telling them we will be leave deal or no deal on the 31st is being believed and being acted upon in the EU

Re: Boris Johnson : Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:54 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I would agree the customs union solves many issues but it is really the only bargaining chip the EU
<>
An article in the Spectator today suggests the German economy would really struggle from a no deal exit for the UK - perhaps Boris telling them we will be leave deal or no deal on the 31st is being believed and being acted upon in the EU

Have you ever thought about taking a step back and pondered that maybe the media you're getting your "facts" from might be misleading you for reasons unknown? Because to anyone with their heads screwed on properly neither of the above make any sense.

Re: Boris Johnson : Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:00 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Have you ever thought about taking a step back and pondered that maybe the media you're getting your "facts" from might be misleading you for reasons unknown? Because to anyone with their heads screwed on properly neither of the above make any sense.

coming from someone who has consistently been shown on this thread to talk complete rubbish I doubt your view of the situation or any situation actually holds any weight. Just run along to your next Momentum meeting and don't forget to pray to Tusk 5 times a day.

Re: Boris Johnson : Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:45 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

coming from someone who has consistently been shown on this thread to talk complete rubbish I doubt your view of the situation or any situation actually holds any weight. Just run along to your next Momentum meeting and don't forget to pray to Tusk 5 times a day.

The humiliation over the exposure of your bull**** over the ozone layer and WTO rules must still sting.

Again you assume anyone who is more informed or not in thrall to your hard right view is a "socialist" (a simplistic term if ever there was one given the mixed economy in which we live). I've voted Tory most of the times I've voted and have never voted Labour. All in the past of course, that was before the party was taken over by the extremist wing which you appear to support. Fortunately I live in a seat where I can meaningfully now vote for neither of them.

Re: Boris Johnson : Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:03 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The troubles in Ireland towards the end were more about organised crime and same religion retribution than anything Catholics v Protestants.

As a catholic who married into a large (connected) Protestant NI family I can assure you that whilst Drugs, Prostitution and Protection were money spinners, the blokes who buried (note....didn't give up) their weapons have been waiting for an excuse to dig them up. Stick a traffic warden in uniform on the border and you're inane comparison with inner city youth using blades on each other will be exposed as nothing other than "flannel" to disguise a real issue in terms of delivering a deal on Brexit.
A good friend of mine attended an event in NYC last month where £7,500,000 was raised to fund a "new conflict" should the need arise. The IRA, should they feel the need to re-engage with the British public and armed forces will have no qualms about revisiting past atrocities......remember, The Omagh bombing was at the end of the conflict and showed a change in tactic from the past, with a false warning given to maximise casualties. If Britain causes these nutjobs to take up arms just to defend the tax rights of the super rich, then it will be the innocent people who will pay the price and Britain will have ZERO sympathy from the world as it will be a problem entirely of their own making.
Brexit has to happen, but the belief that Britain is a bigger trading partner than the collective EU is insane. Britain is the smaller negotiator and will nt get the deal they want or the brexit the people voted for

Re: Boris Johnson : Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:40 am  

AXE2GRIND wrote:

As a catholic who married into a large (connected) Protestant NI family I can assure you that whilst Drugs, Prostitution and Protection were money spinners, the blokes who buried (note....didn't give up) their weapons have been waiting for an excuse to dig them up. Stick a traffic warden in uniform on the border and you're inane comparison with inner city youth using blades on each other will be exposed as nothing other than "flannel" to disguise a real issue in terms of delivering a deal on Brexit.
A good friend of mine attended an event in NYC last month where £7,500,000 was raised to fund a "new conflict" should the need arise. The IRA, should they feel the need to re-engage with the British public and armed forces will have no qualms about revisiting past atrocities......remember, The Omagh bombing was at the end of the conflict and showed a change in tactic from the past, with a false warning given to maximise casualties. If Britain causes these nutjobs to take up arms just to defend the tax rights of the super rich, then it will be the innocent people who will pay the price and Britain will have ZERO sympathy from the world as it will be a problem entirely of their own making.
Brexit has to happen, but the belief that Britain is a bigger trading partner than the collective EU is insane. Britain is the smaller negotiator and will nt get the deal they want or the brexit the people voted for

I dont disagree with you post but, what was the "Brexit the people voted for".
So many people voted for so many different reasons, which is why it has take so long to sort out (or not).

Farage and the right of the Tory party, who have been fundamentally unhappy with the "ever closer union", stirred up a campaign based on immigration which was the easiest way for them to provoke public outrage, when it's mere likely that they wanted "full control" of the UK, rather than having influence from Brussels.
However, it's reasonable to suggest that most people were more unhappy with immigration than influence from the EU and the vast, vast majority had and still have no idea of quite what is involved in our separation and this is true of both "leave" and "remain".
Throw in the blatant lies from both sides.

Whatever happens, there will be at least half of the UK population unhappy with the outcome, which isn't great

Re: Boris Johnson : Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:03 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

An article in the Spectator today suggests the German economy would really struggle from a no deal exit for the UK - perhaps Boris telling them we will be leave deal or no deal on the 31st is being believed and being acted upon in the EU

Ah, the Spectator. Owned by those upstanding members of the community, the Barclay Brothers. They haven't got an agenda at all, have they?

Re: Boris Johnson : Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:55 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

Ah, the Spectator. Owned by those upstanding members of the community, the Barclay Brothers. They haven't got an agenda at all, have they?

They are that wealthy that Brexit will have very limited impact on them so they can pretty much write what they like no need to take either side.