Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:11 pm  

dr_feelgood wrote:

Interesting that this morning on Andrew Marr, Sir Jeremy Farrar, Head of the Wellcome Trust and a Govt and WHO adviser said that mass testing and tracking down and isolation of infected individuals and their contacts was the way to go to reduce the number of cases and that finding effective medication that is allready on the market would be the best treatment in the short term as production of a vaccine would take much longer.

You have to question the decisions of Govt ministers. Advisers are there to advise but Govt ministers don't necessarily need to follow that advice. Furthermore, I would guess that the advisers gave several scenarios ranging from mass testing with a total lockdown to just leaving the pandemic to run its course without intervention. I guess that the government then balanced deaths vs economy prior to making their decisions.

What has become apparent is that globalisation has left us without the capability to mass produce cheap items of PPE as this is now done mainly in China and that the Govt had no effective emergency plan due to running down the NHS budget , public health budget, privatisation/abolition of Govt agencies and not keeping adequate emergency stocks of PPE.

Hopefully this will see increased funding for the NHS in the future and more manufacturing jobs kept in the UK rather than increasing globalisation that has seen these manufacturing jobs move to China with its cheap labour and lack of workers/human rights.

The stark contrast that hits me right between the eyes is the diametrically opposed ridiculous situation with the tories in that after 10 years now there is no PPE on the NHS shelves, but yet we have stockpiles, standby supplies, reserve supplies of useless guns, bullets, missiles, bombs, all sat on shelves doing nothing.

And the even more ridiculous situation is that when all these armaments become out of use date, they are re-stockpiled without hesitation

But NHS service PPE? Typical tories

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:13 pm  

With Boris Johnson acclaiming the NHS now, it isn’t going to go down very well with the ERG and the right wing 1922 committee.

The knives will have been made in China

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:35 pm  

What will they do with the two specifically named nurses coming from New Zealand and Portugal. I bet Farage is disgusted that they could not find Nurses from the U.K. after all we don’t need these workers from outside the U.K.anymore.
We have and we will always needs workers from the EU but by the time Priti Patel gets off her box the government’s immigration policy will be passed and home they go, unless of course they have sadly died protecting our family members.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:22 pm  

Scarlet Pimpernell wrote:

What will they do with the two specifically named nurses coming from New Zealand and Portugal. I bet Farage is disgusted that they could not find Nurses from the U.K. after all we don’t need these workers from outside the U.K.anymore.
We have and we will always needs workers from the EU but by the time Priti Patel gets off her box the government’s immigration policy will be passed and home they go, unless of course they have sadly died protecting our family members.

So if they don't die they get sent home?

Wasn't Nige married to a foreigner?

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:25 pm  

He was and strangely his two children have dual nationality U.K. and German. This unfortunately does not detract from the fact he hates everything EU related with the exception of women in his personal life.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:47 am  

Had to laugh at the quote from one of the parents of the nurse looking after Bojo.

"I just find it incredible she, any nurses, can do this for 12 hours," Caroline MGee said.
"Sit and watch a patient, and twiddle away with all the different knobs to keep their patients alive."

Bumbling Boris is definitely a full-on knob.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:56 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

On the subject of government advisors, it was clear from the start that, Boris Johnson chose to flank himself with 2 health experts, so that he couldn't be blamed if things didn't go to plan.
Quite amazing that "we will go with the science" on this one but, on EVERY other aspect of government, they do as they please.
The scientists and experts on climate change, still remain largely ignored and if they are correct, the effects of the world heating up could be equally as catastrophic, albeit, not necessarily in the UK.

The UK is on course to suffer the highest number of deaths in Europe, despite Germany and France having larger populations, Germany seemingly getting through this rather better than the UK.

Lets see how it all unfolds and hope that the peak is getting very close and that at some point in the next few weeks, the light at the end of the tunnel will get a little brighter.

Thought we'd had enough of experts according to Gove.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:14 pm  

What a miraculous recovery. Looks very wel for someone’s who just come out of the ICU. Also ignoring advice (again) to stay clear of people for two weeks after recovery.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:39 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Indeed

Patel and Hancock pretty much blaming frontline staff for using too much PPE.
True colours shining through.

The current government will NEVER admit any failure or wrong doing.

The procurement of the equipment needed here must be extremely difficult but, rather than admitting this, instead, they like to quote numbers in their 100,000's of how many pairs of gloves and aprons have been sourced.
None of this matters if the front line staff havent got protective gloves or scrubs to use.

As I say, it's an almost impossible task, especially when the bulk of the disposable items are usually bought from China and aside from the logistical issues of moving stuff halfway around the world and EVERY other country needing the exact same equipment, China too has been on lockdown.

A little bit more honesty would certainlt be sensible and not pretending that this is in any way the fault of the people who need the gear.

Like I said a few weeks ago, too many here are too biased or not paying attention.

In almost every briefing I've seen attended by Whitty and Vallance, they have openly and honestly referenced the global shortage of PPE and the difficulties in distribution and supply, as well as the difficulties faced by procurement. You must have somehow missed all of this. Yes, as you mention, China was in lockdown - but that's just part of the issue.

The initial issue wasn't supply, it was local distribution. We had plenty of stock but getting it out there effectively and efficiently was the challenge. Still, as of a few days ago 761 million items of PPE had been delivered to 58,000 different settings across the UK. Has it been perfect? No. Has any nation managed a perfect supply chain throughout this? No (except possibly those producing PPE en masse). Was this ever going to be perfectly managed, anywhere? No. But - not disregarding instances of shortages - have the vast majority of NHS staff had access to PPE equipment? Yes.

But let's also look at supply. The main producers of PPE - China, South Korea, Japan and others - were not only in lockdown, but they also blocked exports of PPE at various stages to protect their own interests (understandable). China even effectively nationalised the Shanghai 3M plant - and others - to prevent exports. Furthermore, China actually IMPORTED 2.5 billion pieces of PPE equipment in Feb/Mar from the EU, Australia and others - stockpiling. Add to that the billions of masks purchased by the public across Asia and later the world, and immediately available stocks are almost wiped out globally.

As an example of the challenges being faced, we have the current issue with gowns. Sufficient stock has been ordered (surprise, surprise - from China). But some has been mislabelled at source and others have failed safety tests and so supplies are low in some areas. Another example of the reliance on cheap but poor quality goods from China backfiring - as we have also seen with equipment and indeed tests across Europe, where millions of Chinese COVID19 tests had to be binned after being found to be useless.

Yes, in an ideal world every nurse, doctor, carer, etc, etc would have an unlimited supply of the very best PPE on tap - and by saying that in absolutely no way do I underestimate the challenges and dangers they are facing. Our NHS staff are outstanding and deserve every plaudit being sent their way (as well as a pay rise). But this is far from an ideal world; it's a feckin global pandemic and the entire planet is stretched. To expect everything to run perfectly is naive.

If there's one thing we must learn from this, it's that reliance on globalisation and cheap but shoddy Chinese/Asian markets is damaging. We've shipped our industries and jobs over there, leaving us exposed when it matters.

Re: PM in Intensive Care... : Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:44 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

On the subject of government advisors, it was clear from the start that, Boris Johnson chose to flank himself with 2 health experts, so that he couldn't be blamed if things didn't go to plan.
Quite amazing that "we will go with the science" on this one but, on EVERY other aspect of government, they do as they please.
The scientists and experts on climate change, still remain largely ignored and if they are correct, the effects of the world heating up could be equally as catastrophic, albeit, not necessarily in the UK.

The UK is on course to suffer the highest number of deaths in Europe, despite Germany and France having larger populations, Germany seemingly getting through this rather better than the UK.

Lets see how it all unfolds and hope that the peak is getting very close and that at some point in the next few weeks, the light at the end of the tunnel will get a little brighter.

You do say some good stuff, but you also roll out some rubbish.

"Boris Johnson chose to flank himself with 2 health experts, so that he couldn't be blamed if things didn't go to plan"

Imagine what you'd come out with if we went to war, "Boris chose to flank himself with the military so he couldn't be blamed, etc..."

And let's imagine the government had dismissed SAGE and its sub-committees and formed their own strategy, ignoring the science - what would you say to that? Let's face it, you'd complain whatever happened. You always do.

In terms of observed cases the UK is currently tracking along the same death rate as Italy, and way below Spain. However we haven't tested as much as some other countries so the rate per confirmed case can appear higher. In reality our deaths per head of population are much lower than most, a more accurate metric given the disparity in testing albeit some countries are at slightly different stages of the pandemic. Spain, Italy, Belgium and France have far higher death rates per head of population, not that it's a competition, but important to point out our strategy is not off track.

That said, frankly I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with the highest number of deaths in Europe, having witnessed the behaviour of large sections of our society who think the law doesn't apply to them. And despite demanding a lockdown only weeks ago, when the police clamp down the press go on the attack, somehow forgetting the fact this is literally a life and death situation. Yes there are isolated incidents of improper police enforcement - but these are isolated.

There is also a massive question mark over whether COVID19 was the cause of death, or whether the victim happened to be infected when they died. I know anecdotally of a couple of cases in which COVID19 has been named as the cause of death where it seems unlikely - one person with late-stage terminal cancer, another with heart disease who suffered a fatal heart attack. Whether someone died of COVID19 or with COVID19 can be two different things. Many countries have different reporting criteria - the numbers are therefore a guideline but whether they are accurate or comparable is debatable.

And in what world have you been living where the UK has ignored climate change scientists?