[Durham Giant]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:41 am  

wotsupcas wrote: So because I voted brexit I want to exterminate 6 million fellow human beings? Give your head a shake I appreciate the subtleties if the arguement are complex . This is a link to an incident in Norwich. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ak-english Now with that sort of behaviour at one end and extermination at the other end there are many steps in between, Patriotism, grievances about situation, blaming others, Stereotypes, Racism , discrimination, demonisation, conflict, persecution, expulsion, extermination. It all starts somewhere like in Germany. That is a continuum. My sadness about Brexit is less economic although I think that is bad is about the loss of certain ideals of internationalism, building bridges over borders, co-operation, richer countries helping poorer countries develop. Whatever you say about the EU it has helped peace and co-operation in Europe for over 70 years. (Other than the breakup of the soviet bloc). Now Britain will go down the same protectionist, nationalistic , jingoistic route as America. Then you will see some using this to blame all foreigners ( non whites, or outsiders) for being the cause of our problems. Even worse it may bolster the far right in other European countries ie Italy, Poland Netherlands etc where things may even be worse.

wotsupcas wrote: So because I voted brexit I want to exterminate 6 million fellow human beings? Give your head a shake I appreciate the subtleties if the arguement are complex . This is a link to an incident in Norwich. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ak-english Now with that sort of behaviour at one end and extermination at the other end there are many steps in between, Patriotism, grievances about situation, blaming others, Stereotypes, Racism , discrimination, demonisation, conflict, persecution, expulsion, extermination. It all starts somewhere like in Germany. That is a continuum. My sadness about Brexit is less economic although I think that is bad is about the loss of certain ideals of internationalism, building bridges over borders, co-operation, richer countries helping poorer countries develop. Whatever you say about the EU it has helped peace and co-operation in Europe for over 70 years. (Other than the breakup of the soviet bloc). Now Britain will go down the same protectionist, nationalistic , jingoistic route as America. Then you will see some using this to blame all foreigners ( non whites, or outsiders) for being the cause of our problems. Even worse it may bolster the far right in other European countries ie Italy, Poland Netherlands etc where things may even be worse.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:04 am  

to equate wanting control back with Nazism is just silly.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:08 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

No. But like I said, don't think it couldn't happen here.

I honestly don't think it could. The vast majority of people in this country are welcoming and tolerant. You will obviously get the odd nutjob but they will get shouted down by the majority. I know its old fashioned but I do think the British on the whole have an inbuilt sense of fair play.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:21 am  

wotsupcas wrote:

Please watch Auschwitz Untold on more4 before calling your own people xenophobic. You ignorant pr##ck

Firstly, well done for getting around the swear filter, you're a real card.

Secondly, the definition of Xenophobia -

Relating to or exhibiting fear or hatred of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers.

Finally, don't try to give me a history lesson, were you even aware the E.U. was initially created to end the warfare between neighbouring countries?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:33 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

Firstly, well done for getting around the swear filter, you're a real card.

Secondly, the definition of Xenophobia -

Relating to or exhibiting fear or hatred of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers.

Finally, don't try to give me a history lesson, were you even aware the E.U. was initially created to end the warfare between neighbouring countries?

I know the definition but there's a big difference in fearing anything foreign and not wanting to be governed by a foreign power.
Save the xenophobe insult for the true Xenophobes, not just because someone voted brexit.
Words like nazi, racist and xenophobe are bandied about too often these days. They are used to insult people who happen to disagree with your political viewpoint.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:56 pm  

I expect we will be governed by the US because Johnson is so desperate for a deal he would sell one of his children.
I remember that prior to the election the government indicated that there would be additional paperwork for goods entering NI. This was then surprisingly rejected by Johnson despite the evidence. Today they are saying any additional paperwork would be the fault of the EU. I sense that the pattern for the next few months is now set as expected.
We appear petty and just continue to threaten the EU, when they point this out the government suggests they don’t interfere.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:16 pm  

Scarlet Pimpernell wrote:

I expect we will be governed by the US because Johnson is so desperate for a deal he would sell one of his children.
I remember that prior to the election the government indicated that there would be additional paperwork for goods entering NI. This was then surprisingly rejected by Johnson despite the evidence. Today they are saying any additional paperwork would be the fault of the EU. I sense that the pattern for the next few months is now set as expected.
We appear petty and just continue to threaten the EU, when they point this out the government suggests they don’t interfere.

The EU position is to now refers to the UK as "competitors" at every opportunity.
This being the case, WHY would they offer a FTA AND allow the UK to negotiate "add on" deals independently with the rest of the world ??

It's not going to happen.

We will either have to pay for access to the EU, which clearly isn't a FTA or there will be tariffs in both directions, which makes things particularly interesting for Ireland (north and south), which must signal the end of N. Ireland as part of The United Kingdom.

Scotland, much like Catalonia and its relationship with Spain, will end up becoming increasingly frustrated, mind you, this would have still happened if we had voted "remain".

"United" Kingdom may booty

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:38 pm  

What many don’t realise that to set the U.K. as a more business friendly competitor to the EU we will have to reduce the vary conditions that were mysteriously omitted from the revised withdrawal agreement. These were workers rights and food standards for example.
I expect the worst with Johnson claiming a success if it was not for the EU stopping him.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:58 pm  

Donald Trump has dictated that the UK becomes a de-facto american state.
Hawaii mk2
Johnson and Farage are his instruments for doing so.

The irony of Brexit is that the one person most opposed to it, Swinson, facilitated its fruition.
Now is the time for the Lib Dem’s to really be honest with themselves as to whether they are true remainers , or watered down tories.

By the end of this parliament, as the older white Brexiteers snuff it, the remain support will be dominant.
The choice is there for the Lib Dem’s

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:44 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote: Firstly, well done for getting around the swear filter, you're a real card. Secondly, the definition of Xenophobia - Relating to or exhibiting fear or hatred of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers. So a dislike of a massive and rapid influx of people, leading to a squeeze on lower-paid jobs, a rapid disruption of communities and other issues such as an increase in crime, differences in culture, etc - is not xenophobia. Neither is rejecting the idea of being ruled by Brussels, or indeed their ideology. You prove the point. Finally, don't try to give me a history lesson, were you even aware the E.U. was initially created to end the warfare between neighbouring countries? Yes, I think we all know why the concept of the EU was formed. But do you actually know all that much about it? Do you know much about the founders and long-term influencers of the early European project? Altiero Spinelli, for example? Or Professor Luigi Einaudi? There are many others, but these two were key. Eunaudi's vision was of a 'United States of Europe' model, with power over...well, everything - a single currency, European army, total control of customs, etc. He even criticised the League of Nations for leaving sovereign nations intact. He was a major influence over Spinella. Spinella was the founder of the European Federalist Movement, and main author of the Ventotene Manifesto, calling for European and global federation. He was a communist and federalist and became a European politician. He has been a constant driver of his ideology from within the European project and is revered amongst EU devotees and the most powerful names within the EU, as are his writings. An example of his influence being the below (taken from The EU's own biography of Spinelli): In 1980, together with other Federalist-minded MEPs, he founded ‘The Crocodile Club’, named after the restaurant in Strasbourg they frequented. The Crocodile Club wanted a new European treaty. The members tabled a motion for the Parliament to set up a special committee to draft a proposal for a new treaty on the European Union, to be anything but in name a constitution of Europe. This proposal - the European Parliament's proposal for a Treaty on a federal European Union - the 'Spinelli Plan' - was adopted in 1984 and although not endorsed by national parliaments, is the foundation for everything that followed and continues to follow (Maastricht, etc). Another example of 'creeping' ratification of the ideology and the utterly undemocratic nature of the EU. What Europhiles fail to understand is that the EU in its current form is far from the finished item. If that's what you understand and truly believe in - the destruction of the sovereign nation state, move to absolute centralised power, etc - then I have no truck with your views. I will oppose them, but at least you would understand exactly what you're arguing for. But the reality is too many remainers, Europhiles etc think all this is all tinfoil-hat stuff. It isn't, it's the ambition of the EU power base and it'll be there within our lifetimes.

The Devil's Advocate wrote: Firstly, well done for getting around the swear filter, you're a real card. Secondly, the definition of Xenophobia - Relating to or exhibiting fear or hatred of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers. So a dislike of a massive and rapid influx of people, leading to a squeeze on lower-paid jobs, a rapid disruption of communities and other issues such as an increase in crime, differences in culture, etc - is not xenophobia. Neither is rejecting the idea of being ruled by Brussels, or indeed their ideology. You prove the point. Finally, don't try to give me a history lesson, were you even aware the E.U. was initially created to end the warfare between neighbouring countries? Yes, I think we all know why the concept of the EU was formed. But do you actually know all that much about it? Do you know much about the founders and long-term influencers of the early European project? Altiero Spinelli, for example? Or Professor Luigi Einaudi? There are many others, but these two were key. Eunaudi's vision was of a 'United States of Europe' model, with power over...well, everything - a single currency, European army, total control of customs, etc. He even criticised the League of Nations for leaving sovereign nations intact. He was a major influence over Spinella. Spinella was the founder of the European Federalist Movement, and main author of the Ventotene Manifesto, calling for European and global federation. He was a communist and federalist and became a European politician. He has been a constant driver of his ideology from within the European project and is revered amongst EU devotees and the most powerful names within the EU, as are his writings. An example of his influence being the below (taken from The EU's own biography of Spinelli): In 1980, together with other Federalist-minded MEPs, he founded ‘The Crocodile Club’, named after the restaurant in Strasbourg they frequented. The Crocodile Club wanted a new European treaty. The members tabled a motion for the Parliament to set up a special committee to draft a proposal for a new treaty on the European Union, to be anything but in name a constitution of Europe. This proposal - the European Parliament's proposal for a Treaty on a federal European Union - the 'Spinelli Plan' - was adopted in 1984 and although not endorsed by national parliaments, is the foundation for everything that followed and continues to follow (Maastricht, etc). Another example of 'creeping' ratification of the ideology and the utterly undemocratic nature of the EU. What Europhiles fail to understand is that the EU in its current form is far from the finished item. If that's what you understand and truly believe in - the destruction of the sovereign nation state, move to absolute centralised power, etc - then I have no truck with your views. I will oppose them, but at least you would understand exactly what you're arguing for. But the reality is too many remainers, Europhiles etc think all this is all tinfoil-hat stuff. It isn't, it's the ambition of the EU power base and it'll be there within our lifetimes.