Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:48 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

would this be yet another way of The EU maintaining control over the UK

I thought you better than statements like that.
I cycled to the train station this morning on roads poorly maintained by the LA due to cuts to budgets by the UK Govt, not The EU. I got on a train that was unusually on time, though it was 4 carriages not 6, because the UK Govt, not The EU, has destroyed our public transport infrastructure. I cycled up through Leeds feeling guilty about all the homeless on the streets due to UK Govt policy, not EU. Got several messages from my daughter from Uni stressing because she wants to do a P/G after her 5 year course & has calculated she will have a debt of £113,582 at the end thanks to UK Govt policy, not The EU. In work we are desperately trying to work out our capital investment for the next 10 years but there are huge concerns due to Brexit policy & fees, due to UK Govt, not the EU. My mother as is struggling with her health & worries constantly about the service she will receive as she goes blind, due to cuts in health & social services thanks to The UK Govt, not the EU.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:49 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The key with the Labour option is the customs union.

Corbyn describes it as "a" customs union, a bespoke Uk - EU deal. However, would this fulfil the commitment to actually leave or, would this be yet another way of The EU maintaining control over the UK and is there really consensus with in Parliament for this option ?

I can see your point, I am sure a customs Union and a Trade Policy would be widely excepted by parliament, not sure if the EU would be happy with it being a bespoke UK-EU deal. I think if the EU were to keep control of workers rights etc that might be seen as the EU still remaining in control. We could however, say that we would have the EU model as our minimum standard as in some areas the UK already exceeds the EU minimum.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:22 pm  

tigertot wrote:

I thought you better than statements like that.
I cycled to the train station this morning on roads poorly maintained by the LA due to cuts to budgets by the UK Govt, not The EU. I got on a train that was unusually on time, though it was 4 carriages not 6, because the UK Govt, not The EU, has destroyed our public transport infrastructure. I cycled up through Leeds feeling guilty about all the homeless on the streets due to UK Govt policy, not EU. Got several messages from my daughter from Uni stressing because she wants to do a P/G after her 5 year course & has calculated she will have a debt of £113,582 at the end thanks to UK Govt policy, not The EU. In work we are desperately trying to work out our capital investment for the next 10 years but there are huge concerns due to Brexit policy & fees, due to UK Govt, not the EU. My mother as is struggling with her health & worries constantly about the service she will receive as she goes blind, due to cuts in health & social services thanks to The UK Govt, not the EU.

I think that you are missing my point (by miles).

I'm well aware that for the main part, our laws and regulations are set by our own government.
However, I do believe that part of the "back stop" arrangement is designed (by the EU) to try and maintain some "ownership" of N.Ireland, with a possible view to divide and multiply. and as we have seen, they are also more than willing to "entertain" any group form the UK who they believe may not want to leave.

The point with ANY customs union is, that there will be a cost and with how things appear, it mat be significant. Either in terms of hard cash or a concession in another direction.

Personally, I'd be more than happy with a customs union, just I would have been happy to remain.

However, I have become less and less comfortable with the prospect of a second referendum and equally uncomfortable with the thought of prolonging this exercise for too much longer.

The UK has flat ling growth at present, business is shackled by massive economic uncertainty and we risk severe damage by not securing our future (in either direction).

If you were bored and wanted to trawl back through these threads, you would see that one of my earliest comments on this subject was about it's timing.

We are barely out of the deepest economic recession in my lifetime and we have volunteered a second economic shock and quite frankly, the longer that our politicians allow this debacle to continue, the deeper into the mire we will fall.

The initial fault for this was Cameron and his Tory cronies, trying to avoid a split within their party but, this could all become quite serious if we dont choose a political path into the future and this needs to be done sooner rather than later.

FWIW, I have 2 kids shackled with University debt, which grows by the month and we are all still paying the price for the banking crash but, Brexit is not helping one iota and we have to move on.

Can you imagine actually going to a second referendum and then still having to go through all of this again ??

It doesn't bear thinking about.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:32 pm  

POSTL wrote:

I can see your point, I am sure a customs Union and a Trade Policy would be widely excepted by parliament, not sure if the EU would be happy with it being a bespoke UK-EU deal. I think if the EU were to keep control of workers rights etc that might be seen as the EU still remaining in control. We could however, say that we would have the EU model as our minimum standard as in some areas the UK already exceeds the EU minimum.

Sounds roughly similar to Turkey’s arrangements with the EU.

Despite some Brexiteers likely going off the deep end about losing the right to have an independent trade policy, it is a workable solution imo.

I wonder if it isn’t floated often because being lumped in with Norway, Switzerland or Canada broadly fits with our national self image, but being like Turkey... not so much.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:29 pm  

So many closer votes tonight, just shows how divided the place is.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:41 pm  

it shouldn't matter, we voted to come out, all this stuff being sprouted on here shouldn't matter, we voted to COME OUT, if we don't democracy is finished

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:11 pm  

hull2524 wrote:

it shouldn't matter, we voted to come out, all this stuff being sprouted on here shouldn't matter, we voted to COME OUT, if we don't democracy is finished

If we don't (and that is a stark possibility now), you'll see the rise of far right parties and groups on a scale we have never seen before. 17.4M leavers...3.8M UKIP voters in 2015...do the maths.

This week has been a shambles. MPs still taking their own individual views over their constituents and looking for an opportunity to attack the Tories and thwart Brexit rather than move forward. If justice is served very few of them keep their jobs next time round.

That said, an interesting turn of events could take place now...we've voted to propose an extension, but all 27 EU nations need to agree. Just 1 rejection would see it vetoed. Legally we are leaving on 29th March.

So, let's say the EU reject an extension (unlikely, but I hope they do, and there are anti-EU governments sympathetic to Brexit). Our only remaining choice is May's deal or no deal by 29th March. Parliament rejected no deal. Again, do the maths.

BTW, I've said it before but taking no deal off the table is a sign of the idiocy prevalent in Parliament. Fortunately it's not binding but if it was the EU could sit back and let the clock run down, knowing the UK has to accept a deal. Leave no deal on the table and the EU know they cannot be seen to agree to something which will damage businesses across Europe and throw Ireland off a cliff.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:37 am  

hull2524 wrote:

it shouldn't matter, we voted to come out, all this stuff being sprouted on here shouldn't matter, we voted to COME OUT, if we don't democracy is finished

Don’t be daft. 37% of people voted in an advisory poll to leave the EU. Even if neither campaign had broken electoral law and even if both campaigns hadn’t declared they would opt for a customs union of some description, the democratic mandate of that poll has already been more than met by Parliament and government.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:50 am  

Is she really going to try and get her deal through again with no changes? What an absolute shambles of a leader she is.

I bet she regrets calling a general election more and more each day, as would all be over now if she hadn't.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:25 am  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

Is she really going to try and get her deal through again with no changes? What an absolute shambles of a leader she is.

I bet she regrets calling a general election more and more each day, as would all be over now if she hadn't.

Tbf, she might (just) get away with it. As other options drop away, MPs will now be forced to choose from fewer, increasing support for those options that remain. Basically it is down to 2:

1. Pass May’s deal then moved forward with a short technical extension to pass the necessary associated legislation
2. Request a long extension and try to find another way forward

The DUP appear to be softening their stance, which’ll give a lot of rebel Tories the excuse they need to vote for the deal. A few Labour MPs from leave constituencies might sneak it over the line.

Neither is very appetising to me, but i’m at the point where I hope May’s deal goes through. It’s not like, imo, anybody else has put forward a coherent and compelling alternative. I do think that is a failing of the Labour leadership - they’ve likely waited for their moment until it has passed.