Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:47 am  

Him wrote:

Don’t be daft. 37% of people voted in an advisory poll to leave the EU. Even if neither campaign had broken electoral law and even if both campaigns hadn’t declared they would opt for a customs union of some description, the democratic mandate of that poll has already been more than met by Parliament and government.

You are of course correct, that BOTH sides told lies and misled the electorate.
However, IF there is a second referendum, just the same type of things will happen and more importantly, the split that there is over Brexit, will become deeper and wider and the anger, particularly from "leavers", which is quite understandable WILL grow and we the result is likely to be very similar (even if the scales happen to tip in favour of remain).
The original referendum was advertised by "remain" as a once in a lifetime vote and NOBODY should have been in any doubt about this.
I voted remain and have been as vociferous as anyone about some of the dodgy tactics, lies, deceit etc but, we have to move on.
The country is now teetering above recession and the ecconomy is likely to slip further and the longer that the current situation continues, the worse this situation will become.
Yes, we are all a little better informed around the issues but, at some point we have to "crap or get off the pot" and right now all we have is increasing pain from sitting there for too long.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:30 am  

I must have missed something. I've seen a few references to an advisory poll. All I can remember is a straight in or out referendum.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:36 am  

hull2524 wrote:

it shouldn't matter, we voted to come out, all this stuff being sprouted on here shouldn't matter, we voted to COME OUT, if we don't democracy is finished

Don't talk crap. A democracy is where you can change your mind. It's like saying you vote for a political party with no knowledge of any of its policies & are not allowed to criticise it when its true colours are shown.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:00 am  

tigertot wrote:

Don't talk crap. A democracy is where you can change your mind. It's like saying you vote for a political party with no knowledge of any of its policies & are not allowed to criticise it when its true colours are shown.

I'm not sure that you're analogy is correct here.
It wasn't a general election, where you can change your mind in 4 years time, it was supposed to be a once in a lifetime vote.
Of course, in democracy, we are all governed, ultimately, by the will of the people.
But, what would you expect to happen IF there was a second referendum, with either a similar result in favour of Leave of a slight majority in favour of remain and you need to think about this one from both sides.

IF I had voted leave and the result changed slightly in favour of remain, I would be more peed off than I was with the first result.

Had Corbyn opened his mouth during the first referendum and swayed a few more Labour voters, maybe, it would have made the difference and had "remain" used someone with charisma, rather than Cameron and Osborne, maybe fewer people would have wanted to bloody their nose.

However, neither of those things happened and you have to accept that Farage and Co ran a far more effective campaign, albeit promising a little more than was ever possible.

The fundamental problem is that despite the vast majority of MP's saying that they would honour the result of the referendum, when it has come to the crunch and because of May's dodgy deal, they cant bring themselves to do what they promised.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:04 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Had Corbyn opened his mouth during the first referendum and swayed a few more Labour voters, maybe, it would have made the difference and had "remain" used someone with charisma, rather than Cameron and Osborne, maybe fewer people would have wanted to bloody their nose.

An early entrant in the daily "What is Jeremy Corbyn's Fault?" competition; good luck - it's a strong contender.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:16 am  

bren2k wrote:

An early entrant in the daily "What is Jeremy Corbyn's Fault?" competition; good luck - it's a strong contender.

Bren, I know that you like the guy's politics but, it's absolutely clear that HE is not comfortable with remaining in the EU and although he bangs on about workers rights etc, which he is right to want to protect, this is only part of the issue.

Labour seem to be split 70 / 30 in favour of remain, with the Tories maybe 75 /25 in favour of leave but having had a referendum with 52 /48 in favour of leave, Labour were not brave enough or committed enough to fight the last election on a "remain" card and yes, Corbyn has been bloody awful on the subject.
Even with the opportunity to back a second referendum, HE instructed his party to abstain.
He needs to grow a pair and quick.

Corbyn was great on the back benches, able to fight for certain issues that he believed in or, against those that hew didn't but, he's an awful leader and just like May, although he has the badge and the big chair, he is not effectively leading his party.

He is frightened to death of committing himself , just in case there is a general election where he may need to change tack. His booty is so full of splinters, it's unbelievable and if you need to measure his effectiveness, just have a look at the opinion polls where, despite being fractured and with THE worst prme minister since the war, the Tories are still 6/7 points ahead.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:29 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

Tbf, she might (just) get away with it. As other options drop away, MPs will now be forced to choose from fewer, increasing support for those options that remain. Basically it is down to 2:

1. Pass May’s deal then moved forward with a short technical extension to pass the necessary associated legislation
2. Request a long extension and try to find another way forward

The DUP appear to be softening their stance, which’ll give a lot of rebel Tories the excuse they need to vote for the deal. A few Labour MPs from leave constituencies might sneak it over the line.

Neither is very appetising to me, but i’m at the point where I hope May’s deal goes through. It’s not like, imo, anybody else has put forward a coherent and compelling alternative. I do think that is a failing of the Labour leadership - they’ve likely waited for their moment until it has passed.

I think it was interesting what Reece Mogg said before the last vote when asked if he would now back the deal, he wouldn't commit until he knew what the DUP were doing. Therefore, if she can somehow get the DUP on board then the ERG just might follow suit. So her deal might just not be dead in the water

I was really disappointed yet again in Labour to see them all sat their abstaining from the Referendum vote. Sitting on the fence AGAIN.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:08 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Bren, I know that you like the guy's politics but, it's absolutely clear that HE is not comfortable with remaining in the EU and although he bangs on about workers rights etc, which he is right to want to protect, this is only part of the issue.

Labour seem to be split 70 / 30 in favour of remain, with the Tories maybe 75 /25 in favour of leave but having had a referendum with 52 /48 in favour of leave, Labour were not brave enough or committed enough to fight the last election on a "remain" card and yes, Corbyn has been bloody awful on the subject.
Even with the opportunity to back a second referendum, HE instructed his party to abstain.
He needs to grow a pair and quick.

Corbyn was great on the back benches, able to fight for certain issues that he believed in or, against those that hew didn't but, he's an awful leader and just like May, although he has the badge and the big chair, he is not effectively leading his party.

He is frightened to death of committing himself , just in case there is a general election where he may need to change tack. His booty is so full of splinters, it's unbelievable and if you need to measure his effectiveness, just have a look at the opinion polls where, despite being fractured and with THE worst prme minister since the war, the Tories are still 6/7 points ahead.

There are no facts in there but one - and the Labour party abstained from the motion because the PV movement itself said it was too soon and tactically, the wrong time. I actually think he's played his hand very well - Labour's position has been clear since conference, and he's stuck to that - in the process, inflicting a series of devastating defeats on the government.

I just can't see this argument that because he's not trying to overturn the result at every twist and turn, it's a failure - because it clearly isn't a failure in the eyes of the Labour voters who also voted leave; and I have less and less sympathy with the argument, largely because of the arrogance and certainty with which many of its advocates have rounded on Corbyn as the 'cause' of Brexit, simply because he isn't willing to alienate the electorate by openly stating that he wants to overturn the result; and why are the Tories - the sole cause and agents of Brexit - getting off scot free? Where are the calls for Mrs May, passionate Remainer, to overturn the result and go immediately to a PV?

It goes back to the earlier point that Brexit does not fall neatly within party lines - and that makes it exceptionally difficult for our party political system to navigate through; which is why Mrs May's refusal to work on building a cross-party consensus instead of doggedly pursuing her own deal, has failed - and why the divisions caused by the campaign and the result are now worse rather than better.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:22 am  

If the D.U.P. decide to U-turn after all their rhetoric about the backstop being a no-no, I wonder what the Tories have offered to sweeten the pill?

There will be a number of the E.R.G. gang who will never vote for the deal, but they could be off-set by the likes of Mann & Hoey. It's going to be tight, like the Benn amendment yesterday.

But even if the deal squeaks through, nobody will be really happy with the outcome.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:25 am  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

But even if the deal squeaks through, nobody will be really happy with the outcome.

Brexit summed up - nobody will be happy; and every social, political or economic issue for the next ten years will be attributed to/blamed on Brexit, and the arguments will never end.

Joy.