Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:48 am  

Mintball wrote:

Private companies 'pay' for most NHS cleaners. That's why their numbers were reduced - and that's a prime reason why MRSA etc increased: profit is more important than people.

And perhaps the NHS, say, could invest in loads more HR types to negotiate all those individual contracts for the million or so staff that largely have such things done by their union officials (and other issues dealt with).

Perhaps, while we're on the subject, the NHS could stop paying millions to consultants like KPMG, to work out how to save money and offshore the roles of people like medical secretaries.

Who pays the private companies? the same people who pay the union reps - so that's a red herring. Cut out the union officials and you have more money to spend on private companies to clean your hospitals.

You honestly think unions negotiate individual contracts for all NHS employees - I can see the surgeons requiring a half wit union official to do their bidding. The NHS like most large employers will have a salary structure with the appropriate breaks depending on qualifications and experience - your idea that union officials negotiate individual salaries is laughable. Who are the union officials negotiating with? they can't agree all million individual salaries with themselves.

Do you think if you removed all the union officials you would have anarchy and everyone would down tools?

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:58 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that none of the above could be standardised and stored electronically - especially given that most will hand typed notes?

No he isn't and if you'd actually read and comprehended more of this thread, you wouldn't have needed to ask the question.

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:00 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Who pays the private companies? the same people who pay the union reps - so that's a red herring. Cut out the union officials and you have more money to spend on private companies to clean your hospitals.

Cut the profit element out of the NHS and you'd have a damn sight more money available for patient care

Sal Paradise wrote:

You honestly think unions negotiate individual contracts for all NHS employees - I can see the surgeons requiring a half wit union official to do their bidding. The NHS like most large employers will have a salary structure with the appropriate breaks depending on qualifications and experience - your idea that union officials negotiate individual salaries is laughable. Who are the union officials negotiating with? they can't agree all million individual salaries with themselves.

Do you think if you removed all the union officials you would have anarchy and everyone would down tools?

You do seem to be especially struggling on the comprehension front this morning

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:25 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that none of the above could be standardised and stored electronically - especially given that most will hand typed notes?

As Codead said, no. Some can be, but what use is it if not combined with the rest? You would be spending large amounts of time and money transferring a tiny proportion of medical notes onto a computerised system. A lot of these notes are not used but need to be kept for legal reasons.

As I said earlier, it would probably make sense to have some kind of transferable , accessible summary. However there are still security and confidentiality issues with that.

Also since, for instance the LGI stores &files differently and uses different identifiers for a lot of these notes than say York District Hospital (because they are different PCT's and is even worse for places outside the same old SHA's) then it would still be very difficult and costly to do in a lot of cases.

Also, the vast majority of these notes are not typed they are written by the doctor/nurse/physio/technician/whoever.

[tb]

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:35 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

What I object to the funding of union officials by us i.e. employees in the public sector that are paid for out of the public purse but work full time for the union - perhaps if the union paid them we would have more funds for hospital cleaners etc.

Ah … losing the argument on NHS privatisation (the subject of this thread), raise the Tory MP/right wing press red herring of facility time …

If you want to discuss facility time (which, of course, occurs in both the public and private sectors), I suggest starting a separate thread.

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:43 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Who pays the private companies? the same people who pay the union reps - so that's a red herring. Cut out the union officials and you have more money to spend on private companies to clean your hospitals...

Oh FFS!

You really imagine that, were facility time scrapped, things would run more smoothly – and private companies would suddenly decide to employ more cleaners? Really? You've actually just managed to completely damn your own arguments elsewhere about employing 'too many' staff when the employer believes they can get away with the smallest number possible.

Sal Paradise wrote:

You honestly think unions negotiate individual contracts for all NHS employees ...

No. That's the point.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... I can see the surgeons requiring a half wit union official ...

From someone who so frequently fails to comprehend even basic posts, that's a tad ripe. And, of course, someone who never ever acknowledges the banana (skins) they've been caught slipping on.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... The NHS like most large employers will have a salary structure with the appropriate breaks depending on qualifications and experience ...

... negotiated with the unions ...

Sal Paradise wrote:

... your idea that union officials negotiate individual salaries is laughable...

Your continued inability to understand very simple points is a hoot.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... Do you think if you removed all the union officials you would have anarchy and everyone would down tools?

~sigh~

I'll try to explain in the simplest terms possible.

A union represents lots of people. Clear so far?

It negotiates on their behalf with the employer on a range of issues, from pay, terms and conditions to disputes.

It is considerably cheaper and less wasteful of time and other resources to have such an arrangement – rather than an employer having to deal with each individual employee on an individual basis, on everything from pay, terms and conditions to grievances of any variety.

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:45 am  

tb wrote:

... If you want to discuss facility time (which, of course, occurs in both the public and private sectors) ...

What? It happens in the 'real world' as well???!!!

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:53 am  

Mintball wrote:

I'll try to explain in the simplest terms possible.

A union represents lots of people. Clear so far?

It negotiates on their behalf with the employer on a range of issues, from pay, terms and conditions to disputes.

It is considerably cheaper and less wasteful of time and other resources to have such an arrangement – rather than an employer having to deal with each individual employee on an individual basis, on everything from pay, terms and conditions to grievances of any variety.

That's all very well but totally unnecessary. In Sal's "real world", the employer tells the employees what to do and how much they'll get for doing it. They then go and do as he says. If they want more money or they want to work less, all they have to do is get promoted or they can always leave and go somewhere else

Simple enough innit?

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:37 am  

Mintball wrote:

What? It happens in the 'real world' as well???!!!

I think we've got to the stage now where we can differentiate from "the real world" and "Sal's real world of unreality" where minimum-wage carers have expense accounts, only the public sector uses unions, the public sector is hugely overstaffed and overpaid (but can't provide significant examples), all British unions are terrible because of his experiences with a print union and 1 employer, and medical notes can be easily computerised despite knowing nothing about them.

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:59 pm  

Big Graeme wrote: Then it doesn't contain anything more than a summary of treatment (an invoice in format) and the financial details to allow you to claim back the cost. http://www.french-property.com/guides/f ... ealth-card Hardly the super system you made it out to be, mind it is a start which is how the UK system should have been set up. typical of the French Property info which has been a rip off since it's conception in it's various guises for a couple of decades providing false info,or at least 'incomplete' info to suit themselves and do their best to make properties in france over inflated by writing such drivel - I worked with this company indirectly for a few years so I do know a bit about about it - you can believe me or not... The Carte Vitale was introduced to speed up and make more efficient the overall running of the CPAM or Social Security system - it does contain all the info required to get reimbursed more quickly at the same time taking out of circulation over 900 million pieces of paper annually from the french SS system ! The card ALSO contains details of treatment received by hospitals,doctors,dentists plus prescriptions over the past twelve months - FACT any treatment or medical interventions before the twelve month period are stored on the doctors or whoevers computer in electronic files - paper files only exist in specialist cases such as my good lady with her cancer treatments over the past six years where the specialists notes are always in paper form with summaries typed up and stored electronically. The patient usually holds all the X-Rays & Scans etc though may hand them over to the specialist for safe keeping - a copy of the X-Rays etc is provided on a floppy disc in certain cases.

Big Graeme wrote: Then it doesn't contain anything more than a summary of treatment (an invoice in format) and the financial details to allow you to claim back the cost. http://www.french-property.com/guides/f ... ealth-card Hardly the super system you made it out to be, mind it is a start which is how the UK system should have been set up. typical of the French Property info which has been a rip off since it's conception in it's various guises for a couple of decades providing false info,or at least 'incomplete' info to suit themselves and do their best to make properties in france over inflated by writing such drivel - I worked with this company indirectly for a few years so I do know a bit about about it - you can believe me or not... The Carte Vitale was introduced to speed up and make more efficient the overall running of the CPAM or Social Security system - it does contain all the info required to get reimbursed more quickly at the same time taking out of circulation over 900 million pieces of paper annually from the french SS system ! The card ALSO contains details of treatment received by hospitals,doctors,dentists plus prescriptions over the past twelve months - FACT any treatment or medical interventions before the twelve month period are stored on the doctors or whoevers computer in electronic files - paper files only exist in specialist cases such as my good lady with her cancer treatments over the past six years where the specialists notes are always in paper form with summaries typed up and stored electronically. The patient usually holds all the X-Rays & Scans etc though may hand them over to the specialist for safe keeping - a copy of the X-Rays etc is provided on a floppy disc in certain cases.