Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:42 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Speaks volumes for the pair of numbskulls who praised his post

Well indeed.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:53 pm  

Hull White Star wrote:

Busy day means running to the hospital for infusions and then to the Doctors for bloods and prescriptions, or having to get to my physios. Busy day means pottering around the house on my sticks. Busy day means having to do the shopping on a mobility scooter because my husband has had to find a job 2 hours away, out of town because we had the threat of my benefit stopping and him losing his public sector job therefore losing my bungalow.

I'm not even going to waste my time on the rest of your post because you've read enough of my posts to know what my illness is and how it affects me.

I fully accept that there are folk who are genuinely disabled and having read quite a few of your posts over the months, I respect that you are one of them - I apologise unreservedly for any offence I may have caused.

However, as some have already pointed out, the major problem that we seem to have is that it is far too easy to be written off as disabled and, with it, unemployable.....More effort should be made to actually use disabled folk in the best possible way for both their own self esteem and the good of society - I'm sure that most people who have been written off would actually appreciate some attempt at being of use in society as a whole and not just abandoned on some scrapheap, being made to feel grateful for any old handout.

My own father is a prime example of the problem....After a very active working life, in the building trade full time and in a family business at weekends, at the age of 54 his left shoulder basically packed up - After a couple of operations, he was 'retired' and basically labelled unemployable, which he was with regards to his previous jobs, but at no point did anybody discuss the possibility of any other type of work - He was basically told that he was finished and should put his feet up and chill, which he has done for the last 17 years.

My main point is that while there are obviously different levels of disability, so there are different levels of work 'difficulty' (for want of a better term).......Yes, somebody like my dad couldn't have continued in the building trade, but what about the possibility of work which isn't so physically reliant??......As I say, if my neighbour can tend his garden, climb trees and build bonfires for his grandkids to enjoy on Guy Fawkes night, then I'm sure he can be adapted somewhere in society?

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:27 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote: More effort should be made to actually use disabled folk in the best possible way for both their own self esteem and the good of society - I'm sure that most people who have been written off would actually appreciate some attempt at being of use in society as a whole and not just abandoned on some scrapheap, being made to feel grateful for any old handout. There is still the remnants of an organisation called Remploy. They used to do an admirable job in helping those who were physically and/or mentally less fortunate than most of us, believe that they were making a contribution towards society. Unfortunately Iain Duncan Smith decided that they sit around drinking coffee all day. The DWP now intends to close most of the Remploy sites and allow the former employees to gain respect by entering the mainstream job market. Just who the fook does IDS think he's kidding? If any of them do manage to find employment, you can guarantee that it will be with an employer who has little if any empathy with their condition. They are also highly likely to be subject to passive or overt workplace bullying. It also seems convenient that one proposal for removing "red tape" is to absolve the employer of any vicarious liability for workplace bullying. This bunch of vicious, evil bastads are working their way through the most vulnerable in society and you suggestion that more should be done to help them into useful work may simply result in them being employed as human draught-excluders in posh houses

Dita's Slot Meter wrote: More effort should be made to actually use disabled folk in the best possible way for both their own self esteem and the good of society - I'm sure that most people who have been written off would actually appreciate some attempt at being of use in society as a whole and not just abandoned on some scrapheap, being made to feel grateful for any old handout. There is still the remnants of an organisation called Remploy. They used to do an admirable job in helping those who were physically and/or mentally less fortunate than most of us, believe that they were making a contribution towards society. Unfortunately Iain Duncan Smith decided that they sit around drinking coffee all day. The DWP now intends to close most of the Remploy sites and allow the former employees to gain respect by entering the mainstream job market. Just who the fook does IDS think he's kidding? If any of them do manage to find employment, you can guarantee that it will be with an employer who has little if any empathy with their condition. They are also highly likely to be subject to passive or overt workplace bullying. It also seems convenient that one proposal for removing "red tape" is to absolve the employer of any vicarious liability for workplace bullying. This bunch of vicious, evil bastads are working their way through the most vulnerable in society and you suggestion that more should be done to help them into useful work may simply result in them being employed as human draught-excluders in posh houses

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:00 pm  

cod'ead wrote: There is still the remnants of an organisation called Remploy. They used to do an admirable job in helping those who were physically and/or mentally less fortunate than most of us, believe that they were making a contribution towards society. Unfortunately Iain Duncan Smith decided that they sit around drinking coffee all day. The DWP now intends to close most of the Remploy sites and allow the former employees to gain respect by entering the mainstream job market. Just who the fook does IDS think he's kidding? If any of them do manage to find employment, you can guarantee that it will be with an employer who has little if any empathy with their condition. They are also highly likely to be subject to passive or overt workplace bullying. It also seems convenient that one proposal for removing "red tape" is to absolve the employer of any vicarious liability for workplace bullying. This bunch of vicious, evil bastads are working their way through the most vulnerable in society and you suggestion that more should be done to help them into useful work may simply result in them being employed as human draught-excluders in posh houses is this the same 'remploy' that peter hain decided was 'simply not viable' back in 2007 and promptly shut almost 30 'factories' a year or so later? vote labour, screw the disabled!

cod'ead wrote: There is still the remnants of an organisation called Remploy. They used to do an admirable job in helping those who were physically and/or mentally less fortunate than most of us, believe that they were making a contribution towards society. Unfortunately Iain Duncan Smith decided that they sit around drinking coffee all day. The DWP now intends to close most of the Remploy sites and allow the former employees to gain respect by entering the mainstream job market. Just who the fook does IDS think he's kidding? If any of them do manage to find employment, you can guarantee that it will be with an employer who has little if any empathy with their condition. They are also highly likely to be subject to passive or overt workplace bullying. It also seems convenient that one proposal for removing "red tape" is to absolve the employer of any vicarious liability for workplace bullying. This bunch of vicious, evil bastads are working their way through the most vulnerable in society and you suggestion that more should be done to help them into useful work may simply result in them being employed as human draught-excluders in posh houses is this the same 'remploy' that peter hain decided was 'simply not viable' back in 2007 and promptly shut almost 30 'factories' a year or so later? vote labour, screw the disabled!

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:01 pm  

Mrs D had a go at a Job Centre today. She claims ESA for Miss D. They stopped it. So, Mrs D 'phoned and apparently it was stopped due to "a change in 'your' circumstances." When Mrs D asked what the change in circumstances was it was apparently because Miss D's medical certificate had lapsed. Mrs D pointed out she'd sent them a 52 week sick note in April. Apparently they only accept 3 month ones but didn't tell Mrs D. She gave them what for. After which the idit asked "do you want to claim tbhe benefit then?". As Mrs D said does the silly woman work for fun or to get paid to live? How does she think those unable to work can live? (Fortunately, for Miss D there was no hardship as we support her but for those who need to get benefit to eat things are bad.

What a waste of resources - a 3 monthly waste of GPs time, our time and the beaurocrats time for someone with a long-term conditiuon. This is where so much waste happens in the public sector - an unthinking approach, duplication, triplication and more of effort by different "agencies", people who care about there job but not about the people they are supposedly employed to help.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:36 pm  

samwire wrote: is this the same 'remploy' that peter hain decided was 'simply not viable' back in 2007 and promptly shut almost 30 'factories' a year or so later? vote labour, screw the disabled! He did? Have a read: Hansard 29 November 2007 Remploy 12.15 pm The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr. Peter Hain): I wish to make a statement on the modernisation of Remploy. Since Remploy was founded in 1945, it has played a central role in the lives of thousands of disabled men and women by providing supported employment for those who need it and, increasingly, by placing others in mainstream employment. Both as a local MP and as a Minister, I have for the past 17 years worked closely with and supported Remploy and, as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Remploy workers will continue to have my full support. May I record the grateful thanks of the House for the diligence and commitment of my hon. Friend the Minister for Disabled People. Of course, the world has developed dramatically since the end of the second world war, not least in how the aspirations and expectations of disabled people have changed, and changed for the better. The vast majority want jobs in mainstream employment, and that is the Government’s priority. That is why we extended the scope of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. That is why we have been transforming the support that we give to disabled people, moving away from a system that abandons people to the margins to one that helps them to realise their potential. That is why we spent £66 million last year on the Workstep programme to support 17,000 disabled people. That is why we spent £62 million on access to work, to help 24,000 people. These programmes are already helping disabled people to take their place in an inclusive society. That is why we are introducing the employment and support allowance, which will replace incapacity benefit next autumn. That is why we are extending pathways to work across the country by April next year, offering tailored support to help people on incapacity benefit back into work. And that is why last year, Remploy’s employment services division placed 5,000 disabled people in mainstream employment, for the first time outstripping the number employed by the factory network. We have helped more disabled people into jobs than ever before. For example, since 2001 the new deal for disabled people has helped over 150,000 into work. None the less, there remains a vital role for supported employment, providing a chance to work for thousands of disabled people who might not otherwise be immediately ready for mainstream work. That has been a central part of Remploy’s work since it was founded, but increasingly, Remploy has struggled to fulfil this role effectively. Low-wage, low-skill competition from countries like China and the EU accession states has put Remploy factories under enormous pressure. In turn, Remploy has failed to move adequately into higher-value, higher-skill work. Losses have spiralled, and Remploy’s ability to support disabled people has been put at risk. Change is therefore essential for Remploy’s 83 factories across the country, and the 5,000 people whom they employ. Following the National Audit Office’s report in 2005 and the independent report by PricewaterhouseCoopers and Dr. Stephen Duckworth of Disability Matters last 29 Nov 2007 : Column 448 summer, Ministers asked Remploy to develop a new five-year restructuring plan. This was to modernise the business, avoid compulsory redundancy for Remploy’s disabled workers, support substantially larger numbers of disabled people into mainstream work, and stay within a funding envelope of a £555 million taxpayer subsidy over five years, to ensure that escalating costs do not put at risk funding for other Department for Work and Pensions programmes for disabled people. The reality is that without modernisation Remploy deficits would obliterate our other programmes to help disabled people into mainstream work. With no change, in five years’ time Remploy would require £171 million a year on current trends. That would be £60 million over the £111 million funding envelope, which represents nearly the entire current annual Workstep budget. In May 2007, Remploy made a proposal, for consultation with the trade unions, to close or merge 43 of the 83 Remploy factories. When I took over as Secretary of State a month later, however, it was clear that national and local management had not exhausted procurement opportunities to maintain the maximum number of Remploy sites. There was also a huge gulf between Remploy management and the trade unions, and the likelihood of destructive confrontation. In August I therefore asked Roger Poole, a former assistant general secretary of Unison, to act as the independent chairman of fresh negotiations, and I want to record my thanks for the way in which he managed to achieve real dialogue and progress. Although there was no agreement on factory closures, there was significant common ground for the first time. There was agreement on the £555 million funding subsidy, on the quadrupling to 20,000 the number of disabled people Remploy would help into mainstream work, on significant cuts in management jobs and costs, on more efficient working practices, and on the vital importance of generating more public sector contracts—and, in consequence, the need for fewer factory closures. In September I reaffirmed Government policy on Remploy: that everyone should do their utmost to get a negotiated outcome; that there would be no factory closures without ministerial agreement; and that all public authorities should be encouraged to take advantage of European procurement rules allowing contracts to be reserved for supported businesses. I also reaffirmed, as I do again today, that there would be no compulsory redundancies for Remploy’s disabled workers and that they would retain the protection of Remploy’s terms and conditions, including—uniquely for workers facing plant closures or transfers—their salaries and final salary pensions. Both workers and management now need certainty to end the insecurity and worry for Remploy employees and their families and to allow Remploy management to begin the radical changes that we all recognise are needed. The final proposals that I am announcing today represent the best package for Remploy’s disabled employees in those difficult circumstances. Copies of the modernisation plan are available in the Vote Office, and a letter with agreed proposals to the trade unions has been deposited in the Library. There will be 15 fewer factory closures, with 55 factories remaining open and 11 merging—down from 32 closures to 17. 29 Nov 2007 : Column 449 The sales target for public procurement will increase to £461 million over five years, up from £298 million since the company’s proposals in May. That is a huge and challenging 130 per cent. increase over the current rate of sales of £200 million. There will be a total cost saving of £59 million from around 25 per cent. fewer managers, changes in working practices and reductions in non-wage costs. Last week I had productive discussions with the leaders of the GMB, Unite and Community, joined by Remploy chairman Ian Russell, and I pay tribute to Ian Russell for his energy and commitment to get the best for Remploy workers. As a result, we have reached further agreements to protect Remploy’s future and its workers. New skills in public procurement will be brought in to ensure that its marketing and sales effort is targeted appropriately. Appropriate employment advice will be available to all disabled employees whose factories are closing. Remploy will provide a travel-to-work package wherever necessary, where employees transfer as a result of mergers. Furthermore, Remploy has been contacted by third parties interested in keeping some form of production or training at six of the sites due for closure—Lydney, Glasgow Hillington, St. Helens, Treforest, Ystradgynlais and Brynamman. At four other sites—Mansfield, Pinxton, Plymouth and York—there is the possibility of staff transfers to nearby plants, most of which are local authority-supported. I know there will be disappointment that we are unable to keep even more factories open, but the reality is that it is simply not viable. For those sites, including those mentioned above, this is my message: if management, trade unions, MPs and others come up with a credible option involving a takeover or transfer, we will, of course, co-operate, and Remploy will help to facilitate. However, time is very short. The new funding envelope starts in four months’ time—from 1 April 2008. We have managed to keep open 55 sites only on the basis of very stretching procurement targets and a tough forward plan. It will be up to everyone with an interest in Remploy—Government, management, trade unions, local MPs and other political representatives— to pull together to ensure that those factories meet their ambitious targets, otherwise they, too, could be put at risk. The proposals that I have presented today are both realistic about the challenges facing Remploy and ambitious for the future. The plan makes some difficult choices, and many hon. Members wish that the circumstances were different, but we are where we are. What is now vital is that everyone concentrates their efforts on making the new Remploy a success. There will be a top-to-bottom restructuring and reskilling of Remploy. The plan will deliver a new beginning for Remploy requiring a radically new approach across the entire operation, which must include better management and better union relations. Last week, I agreed with union leaders that the modernisation and procurement plan will be properly monitored to ensure that it remains on course, so that Remploy can look to the future with a degree of confidence not enjoyed for some years—the people that it was set up to serve deserve no less. I commend this statement to the House. Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I start by thanking the Secretary of State for giving me advance sight of the statement.

samwire wrote: is this the same 'remploy' that peter hain decided was 'simply not viable' back in 2007 and promptly shut almost 30 'factories' a year or so later? vote labour, screw the disabled! He did? Have a read: Hansard 29 November 2007 Remploy 12.15 pm The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr. Peter Hain): I wish to make a statement on the modernisation of Remploy. Since Remploy was founded in 1945, it has played a central role in the lives of thousands of disabled men and women by providing supported employment for those who need it and, increasingly, by placing others in mainstream employment. Both as a local MP and as a Minister, I have for the past 17 years worked closely with and supported Remploy and, as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Remploy workers will continue to have my full support. May I record the grateful thanks of the House for the diligence and commitment of my hon. Friend the Minister for Disabled People. Of course, the world has developed dramatically since the end of the second world war, not least in how the aspirations and expectations of disabled people have changed, and changed for the better. The vast majority want jobs in mainstream employment, and that is the Government’s priority. That is why we extended the scope of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. That is why we have been transforming the support that we give to disabled people, moving away from a system that abandons people to the margins to one that helps them to realise their potential. That is why we spent £66 million last year on the Workstep programme to support 17,000 disabled people. That is why we spent £62 million on access to work, to help 24,000 people. These programmes are already helping disabled people to take their place in an inclusive society. That is why we are introducing the employment and support allowance, which will replace incapacity benefit next autumn. That is why we are extending pathways to work across the country by April next year, offering tailored support to help people on incapacity benefit back into work. And that is why last year, Remploy’s employment services division placed 5,000 disabled people in mainstream employment, for the first time outstripping the number employed by the factory network. We have helped more disabled people into jobs than ever before. For example, since 2001 the new deal for disabled people has helped over 150,000 into work. None the less, there remains a vital role for supported employment, providing a chance to work for thousands of disabled people who might not otherwise be immediately ready for mainstream work. That has been a central part of Remploy’s work since it was founded, but increasingly, Remploy has struggled to fulfil this role effectively. Low-wage, low-skill competition from countries like China and the EU accession states has put Remploy factories under enormous pressure. In turn, Remploy has failed to move adequately into higher-value, higher-skill work. Losses have spiralled, and Remploy’s ability to support disabled people has been put at risk. Change is therefore essential for Remploy’s 83 factories across the country, and the 5,000 people whom they employ. Following the National Audit Office’s report in 2005 and the independent report by PricewaterhouseCoopers and Dr. Stephen Duckworth of Disability Matters last 29 Nov 2007 : Column 448 summer, Ministers asked Remploy to develop a new five-year restructuring plan. This was to modernise the business, avoid compulsory redundancy for Remploy’s disabled workers, support substantially larger numbers of disabled people into mainstream work, and stay within a funding envelope of a £555 million taxpayer subsidy over five years, to ensure that escalating costs do not put at risk funding for other Department for Work and Pensions programmes for disabled people. The reality is that without modernisation Remploy deficits would obliterate our other programmes to help disabled people into mainstream work. With no change, in five years’ time Remploy would require £171 million a year on current trends. That would be £60 million over the £111 million funding envelope, which represents nearly the entire current annual Workstep budget. In May 2007, Remploy made a proposal, for consultation with the trade unions, to close or merge 43 of the 83 Remploy factories. When I took over as Secretary of State a month later, however, it was clear that national and local management had not exhausted procurement opportunities to maintain the maximum number of Remploy sites. There was also a huge gulf between Remploy management and the trade unions, and the likelihood of destructive confrontation. In August I therefore asked Roger Poole, a former assistant general secretary of Unison, to act as the independent chairman of fresh negotiations, and I want to record my thanks for the way in which he managed to achieve real dialogue and progress. Although there was no agreement on factory closures, there was significant common ground for the first time. There was agreement on the £555 million funding subsidy, on the quadrupling to 20,000 the number of disabled people Remploy would help into mainstream work, on significant cuts in management jobs and costs, on more efficient working practices, and on the vital importance of generating more public sector contracts—and, in consequence, the need for fewer factory closures. In September I reaffirmed Government policy on Remploy: that everyone should do their utmost to get a negotiated outcome; that there would be no factory closures without ministerial agreement; and that all public authorities should be encouraged to take advantage of European procurement rules allowing contracts to be reserved for supported businesses. I also reaffirmed, as I do again today, that there would be no compulsory redundancies for Remploy’s disabled workers and that they would retain the protection of Remploy’s terms and conditions, including—uniquely for workers facing plant closures or transfers—their salaries and final salary pensions. Both workers and management now need certainty to end the insecurity and worry for Remploy employees and their families and to allow Remploy management to begin the radical changes that we all recognise are needed. The final proposals that I am announcing today represent the best package for Remploy’s disabled employees in those difficult circumstances. Copies of the modernisation plan are available in the Vote Office, and a letter with agreed proposals to the trade unions has been deposited in the Library. There will be 15 fewer factory closures, with 55 factories remaining open and 11 merging—down from 32 closures to 17. 29 Nov 2007 : Column 449 The sales target for public procurement will increase to £461 million over five years, up from £298 million since the company’s proposals in May. That is a huge and challenging 130 per cent. increase over the current rate of sales of £200 million. There will be a total cost saving of £59 million from around 25 per cent. fewer managers, changes in working practices and reductions in non-wage costs. Last week I had productive discussions with the leaders of the GMB, Unite and Community, joined by Remploy chairman Ian Russell, and I pay tribute to Ian Russell for his energy and commitment to get the best for Remploy workers. As a result, we have reached further agreements to protect Remploy’s future and its workers. New skills in public procurement will be brought in to ensure that its marketing and sales effort is targeted appropriately. Appropriate employment advice will be available to all disabled employees whose factories are closing. Remploy will provide a travel-to-work package wherever necessary, where employees transfer as a result of mergers. Furthermore, Remploy has been contacted by third parties interested in keeping some form of production or training at six of the sites due for closure—Lydney, Glasgow Hillington, St. Helens, Treforest, Ystradgynlais and Brynamman. At four other sites—Mansfield, Pinxton, Plymouth and York—there is the possibility of staff transfers to nearby plants, most of which are local authority-supported. I know there will be disappointment that we are unable to keep even more factories open, but the reality is that it is simply not viable. For those sites, including those mentioned above, this is my message: if management, trade unions, MPs and others come up with a credible option involving a takeover or transfer, we will, of course, co-operate, and Remploy will help to facilitate. However, time is very short. The new funding envelope starts in four months’ time—from 1 April 2008. We have managed to keep open 55 sites only on the basis of very stretching procurement targets and a tough forward plan. It will be up to everyone with an interest in Remploy—Government, management, trade unions, local MPs and other political representatives— to pull together to ensure that those factories meet their ambitious targets, otherwise they, too, could be put at risk. The proposals that I have presented today are both realistic about the challenges facing Remploy and ambitious for the future. The plan makes some difficult choices, and many hon. Members wish that the circumstances were different, but we are where we are. What is now vital is that everyone concentrates their efforts on making the new Remploy a success. There will be a top-to-bottom restructuring and reskilling of Remploy. The plan will deliver a new beginning for Remploy requiring a radically new approach across the entire operation, which must include better management and better union relations. Last week, I agreed with union leaders that the modernisation and procurement plan will be properly monitored to ensure that it remains on course, so that Remploy can look to the future with a degree of confidence not enjoyed for some years—the people that it was set up to serve deserve no less. I commend this statement to the House. Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I start by thanking the Secretary of State for giving me advance sight of the statement.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:45 pm  

Dita's Slot Machine wrote:

I fully accept that there are folk who are genuinely disabled and having read quite a few of your posts over the months, I respect that you are one of them - I apologise unreservedly for any offence I may have caused

Thanks for that, its much appreciated. It is a difficult one which the government have not given much thought to and lumped us all together. I've mentioned this before, everyones abilities and disabilities are different as are our work capabilities. This is something that needs looking at. To give you an example I have rheumatoid arthritis, my prognosis is probably wheelchair bound in time something I've come to accept, yet at I was placed in the Work related group which means I had one year to find and take a cure for my RA or my benefit would stop as this government say 1year is adequete time to get better. This is not widely known unless its happening to you.

Disability and illness is not as black or white as the government make out.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:46 pm  

Double Post

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:51 pm  

Hull White Star wrote:

I fully accept that there are folk who are genuinely disabled and having read quite a few of your posts over the months, I respect that you are one of them - I apologise unreservedly for any offence I may have caused

At my workplace, we have external secretaries who type out our dictations, letters, invoices, attendance notes etc.

You seem to have no trouble typing large blocks of text and presumably can listen through headphones.

Can you do a job like this?

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:54 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

At my workplace, we have external secretaries who type out our dictations, letters, invoices, attendance notes etc.

You seem to have no trouble typing large blocks of text and presumably can listen through headphones.

Can you do a job like this?

Yes, but not repeatitively which is recognised on your ESA50 forms as not being able to do the task at all. Thats the most frustrating thing, I have exams in typing, its been my job since leaving school yet when I do it for any length of time, my hands and fingers swell and my wrists seize up. So if I can find a job where I type for a few minutes a day, bingo!!