Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:03 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Well indeed.

It's not as if the state of Israel is actually trying to gently persuade those swarthy Arab types to just up and leave their homes and land peacefully now, is it?

After all, they actually want to buy the land and homes – it's not as though they're stealing it. Or bombing little children's head off with their ever-so-sexy jets and 'smart' bombs, is it? Obviously, if they were doing things like that, it might be a bit more than a "land grab", wouldn't it?

And they didn't start the process of creating the state of Israel by being terrorists did they? They didn't for instance, poison wells, did they? They didn't shoot British soldiers in the back of the heads like cowards, did they? They didn't bomb hotels, did they?

That wasn't them, now was it?

Because at the end of the day, you're such a decent progressive, right-on geezer that you wouldn't remotely support or excuse things like that, now would you? After all, you've told us, at length, just how much you detest those nasty terrorists (while, entirely coincidentally, refusing to say whether you thought Mandela was just such a one because old Maggie said so).

What do you think, incidentally, about sonic booms that cause miscarrriages? Would you do more of them? After all, it could reduce the birth rate amongst those nasty Arabs.

Could you explain why razing orchards to the ground is A Good Thing? Because some people are confused, and think it's not very nice – indeed, that it's almost 'terrorist' behaviour.

How about detention without trial? Are you okay with that?

And collective punishment – now obviously, the Nazis set the standard, so perhaps you could explain why your support of it, when carried out by the state of Israel, differs utterly and completely from what the Nazis did.

That is one hell of a hissy fit. Im not sure where you think i have said those things arent bad, or havent been done, or where i addressed or mentioned them. But it was an opportunity for you to have a go at Israel, however irrelevant and its obviously an opportunity you couldnt bring yourself to miss.

Maybe some sort of echo-chamber would be more useful for you?

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:17 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote: That is one hell of a hissy fit. Im not sure where you think i have said those things arent bad, or havent been done, or where i addressed or mentioned them. But it was an opportunity for you to have a go at Israel, however irrelevant and its obviously an opportunity you couldnt bring yourself to miss. Maybe some sort of echo-chamber would be more useful for you? Well, y'see, I get kind of wound up by people trying to pretend that the murder of innocent people, ethnic cleansing and the use of war as an electioneering tool are just nothing "more complex than a plain and simple land grab', which was what you claimed. In other words, you dismiss all these things I described (and more) to describe the behaviour of the state of Israel in that dismissive way: 'a simple land grab', FFS. Open this and find out what your "simple land grab' really means. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/S ... a-2009.jpg Or this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/S ... Victim.jpg

SmokeyTA wrote: That is one hell of a hissy fit. Im not sure where you think i have said those things arent bad, or havent been done, or where i addressed or mentioned them. But it was an opportunity for you to have a go at Israel, however irrelevant and its obviously an opportunity you couldnt bring yourself to miss. Maybe some sort of echo-chamber would be more useful for you? Well, y'see, I get kind of wound up by people trying to pretend that the murder of innocent people, ethnic cleansing and the use of war as an electioneering tool are just nothing "more complex than a plain and simple land grab', which was what you claimed. In other words, you dismiss all these things I described (and more) to describe the behaviour of the state of Israel in that dismissive way: 'a simple land grab', FFS. Open this and find out what your "simple land grab' really means. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/S ... a-2009.jpg Or this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/S ... Victim.jpg

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:28 pm  

Mintball wrote: Well, y'see, I get kind of wound up by people trying to pretend that the murder of innocent people, ethnic cleansing and the use of war as an electioneering tool are just nothing "more complex than a plain and simple land grab', which was what you claimed. In other words, you dismiss all these things I described (and more) to describe the behaviour of the state of Israel in that dismissive way: 'a simple land grab', FFS. Open this and find out what your "simple land grab' really means. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/S ... a-2009.jpg Or this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/S ... Victim.jpg Why are you equating how complex something is to how morally acceptable it is?

Mintball wrote: Well, y'see, I get kind of wound up by people trying to pretend that the murder of innocent people, ethnic cleansing and the use of war as an electioneering tool are just nothing "more complex than a plain and simple land grab', which was what you claimed. In other words, you dismiss all these things I described (and more) to describe the behaviour of the state of Israel in that dismissive way: 'a simple land grab', FFS. Open this and find out what your "simple land grab' really means. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mFkRlsMQAlY/S ... a-2009.jpg Or this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/S ... Victim.jpg Why are you equating how complex something is to how morally acceptable it is?

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:51 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

...
And whilst your defence of the image maybe correct, and your argument over why it shouldn’t be offensive may be cogent. You aren’t the arbiter of offence,

I'm also not the Pope, nor a giraffe. Unless I had claimed to be, that's a weird comment.

You are losing it completely in your attempts to plug the holes in your case. I did not claim it shouldn't be offensive. Indeed, probably the majority of political and satirical cartoons are inevitably going to offend someone. I really don't know how you could have made such a basic mistake; do you, for example, believe I would think Netanyahu wouldn't be offended by the cartoon?

SmokeyTA wrote:

the argument isnt over whether it is or isn’t offensive, whether I should or shouldn’t be offended or whether others should or shouldn’t ...

Again, who said it was? As I have just said, most cartoons of the genre are "offensive" in the general sense that they take a swipe at some target or other, who is highly likely to take offence. It is also not the point of them.

SmokeyTA wrote:

,,, it is whether there was the potential for offence even if it was misinterpreted.

Absolutely not. For reasons which include the ones stated above. Indeed, if you were right, Scarfe might as well publish a general apology pretty much every cartoon he sketches.

SmokeyTA wrote:

I find it quite rich that we have so many people telling someone else, somewhere else what they are and aren’t allowed to be offended by.

I haven't found anyone doing any such thing. I must have missed it. Do you really believe this is happening? It isn't.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:01 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I'm also not the Pope,

Nobody said you were, why would you bring this up? Blah blah blah blah blah

You see its very easy when we quote part of a sentence to change it and then argue against it, and pretend somehow you are 'winning'

As i told you before, if thats what you want to do, you are free to do so but i dont need to be here for it.

If you really do want me to be here for it, im a patient guy and happy to help. So lets cut to the chase, you tell me what argument you want me to make, Ill make it, you can argue against it feel like a 'winner' and go home happy. It will probably save us wasting some time..........

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:25 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

That is one hell of a hissy fit. Im not sure where you think i have said those things arent bad, or havent been done, or where i addressed or mentioned them. But it was an opportunity for you to have a go at Israel, however irrelevant and its obviously an opportunity you couldnt bring yourself to miss...

FFS, the thread is about a cartoon which was having a go at Israel because of its "bad things".
So, how is mentioning those "bad things" irrelevant?

[Kosh]

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:37 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

FFS, the thread is about a cartoon which was having a go at Israel because of its "bad things".
So, how is mentioning those "bad things" irrelevant?

Actually, the cartoon was having a go at Netanyahu specifically. As stated by Scarfe himself.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:41 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

FFS, the thread is about a cartoon which was having a go at Israel because of its "bad things".
So, how is mentioning those "bad things" irrelevant?

The fairly obvious answer would be that nobody is disputing those things happening or anyone’s right to criticise them. There is no purpose served in mintball’s response (which addressed nothing I said) by listing them, other than giving Minty a chance to vent about her pet cause and to have this thread fall in to the usual anti-Israel mud-slinging echo-chamber that all Israel related threads on here descend into.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:43 pm  

Kosh wrote:

Actually, the cartoon was having a go at Netanyahu specifically. As stated by Scarfe himself.

And el barbudos post does, quite clearly, show how the target of a cartoon can be misinterpreted. Though we were all apparently supposed to be pretending that only the professionally outraged could have possibly misinterpreted the cartoon.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:07 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Nobody said you were, why would you bring this up? Blah blah blah blah blah

You see its very easy when we quote part of a sentence to change it and then argue against it, and pretend somehow you are 'winning'

As i told you before, if thats what you want to do, you are free to do so but i dont need to be here for it.

If you really do want me to be here for it, im a patient guy and happy to help. So lets cut to the chase, you tell me what argument you want me to make, Ill make it, you can argue against it feel like a 'winner' and go home happy. It will probably save us wasting some time..........

There you go, you've run out of arguments, so instead of trying to respond to them, you switch to bleating and whining. And presumably think nobody will notice.

But they do. If you don't want to advance an argument against mine, then that is up to you. The ball's either in your court, or if you like, boot it out of the ground in a fit of pique.