Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:05 pm  

Dally wrote: This article sums things up: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 36711.html Read that in the pub before the derby match on Thursday. It's a brilliant - and brilliantly funny - article. Here's another from the Independent. Will come as no surprise, but still staggering to see the extent of the bias in black and white. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 40681.html The research director at the London School of Economics who led the project suggests this undermines democracy in the UK. It's hard to disagree. The extent of the misrepresentation really raises the suggestion that Corbyn is in actual fact perceived to be a real threat.

Dally wrote: This article sums things up: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 36711.html Read that in the pub before the derby match on Thursday. It's a brilliant - and brilliantly funny - article. Here's another from the Independent. Will come as no surprise, but still staggering to see the extent of the bias in black and white. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 40681.html The research director at the London School of Economics who led the project suggests this undermines democracy in the UK. It's hard to disagree. The extent of the misrepresentation really raises the suggestion that Corbyn is in actual fact perceived to be a real threat.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:44 am  

This support of Corbyn does show though that there is a real cry from the people for a left wing alternative.

You have all the daft parties of the far right, then UKIP a little further in, followed by the Tories and then marginally to the right New Labour.
The Lib Dems consigned themselves to the dustbin aligning themselves with the Tories so what choices do the people have? They can vote Green, knowing full well that a high percentage of a mainly right wing country (England) see them as a fruitcakes (i vote for them, says everything) or they can try to force one of the establishment parties over to the left, which is what they are trying to do with a Corbyn lead Labour. I feel for them i really do.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:32 am  

Wire Yed wrote:

This support of Corbyn does show though that there is a real cry from the people for a left wing alternative.

You have all the daft parties of the far right, then UKIP a little further in, followed by the Tories and then marginally to the right New Labour.
The Lib Dems consigned themselves to the dustbin aligning themselves with the Tories so what choices do the people have? They can vote Green, knowing full well that a high percentage of a mainly right wing country (England) see them as a fruitcakes (i vote for them, says everything) or they can try to force one of the establishment parties over to the left, which is what they are trying to do with a Corbyn lead Labour. I feel for them i really do.

Which is why we need Proportional Representation. It would ensure everyone's vote counted and the left could vote for the Greens (or whoever) and the right could vote for UKIP without feeling like its a wasted vote. I'm certain a PR system would see a much higher vote for the non-mainstream parties. Which would give a more accurate account of people's views across the country.

[Bullseye]

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:11 am  

It would also give a platform for the far right as it does in France. Are you happy for that to happen? I'm not sure I am.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:40 am  

Bullseye wrote:

It would also give a platform for the far right as it does in France. Are you happy for that to happen? I'm not sure I am.

I find France very strange in that regard. I know several educated French people and am surprised at their almost open disgust towards those of arab or African origin in their country. It seems very targeted at those in France rather than the stereotyped dislike of non-whites everywhere.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:01 pm  

Since a lot of people on my FB feed are sharing "They called Attlee unelectable too" memes atm, here's the actual polling data. http://www.markpack.org.uk/files/2016/0 ... dsheet.xls There is one single, solitary occasion where the predicted margin of victory for Attlee drops below 6%. Glad people are finding solace in it though, even if it is complete bllocks and always was.

Since a lot of people on my FB feed are sharing "They called Attlee unelectable too" memes atm, here's the actual polling data. http://www.markpack.org.uk/files/2016/0 ... dsheet.xls There is one single, solitary occasion where the predicted margin of victory for Attlee drops below 6%. Glad people are finding solace in it though, even if it is complete bllocks and always was.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:52 am  

Bullseye wrote:

It would also give a platform for the far right as it does in France. Are you happy for that to happen? I'm not sure I am.

Not particularly, as I said people who vote UKIP would have their vote "count" too (I class UKIP as far right). But I think it's preferable to this sort of slow burn effect of disenchantment where people feel their views aren't encapsulated by the 2 main parties and yet feel their only real choices when it comes to an election is to either vote for one of those parties, vote for another party as a protest but knowing it won't really be counted, or, as many people do, not vote at all.

For example, the Labour Party is moving too far to the Right for my liking. Consequently I can either keep voting Labour, vote for the Green Party but know it's entirely wasted, or not vote.

I'll probably keep voting Labour, but it just leaves me feeling p|ssed off and not at all represented.

PR enables other party involvement, which as you rightly point out isn't always good, but I think if those views are held by people in this country then we should acknowledge those views and challenge them rather than let them fester under the surface. The BNP grew steadily for years out of spotlight, one Question Time performance and they were finished.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:00 pm  

DHM wrote:

I find France very strange in that regard. I know several educated French people and am surprised at their almost open disgust towards those of arab or African origin in their country. It seems very targeted at those in France rather than the stereotyped dislike of non-whites everywhere.

That's normal isn't it? I recall arguing with friends from SE London and the Black Country respectively when I was but a student many years ago about their overtly racist tendencies. Their answer was that "you don't live among "them"". So I would guess that the French position is typical.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:35 am  

I was in a bar in Atlanta, and rather bravely/foolishly given I was a stranger (although I would do it again) was defending black people against these 2 overtly racist white Americans.
"Sure everyone of you liberals loves n---a's until you have to live with them"

I'd never heard anything as shocking in my life in the way it was so blatant, I pointed out I not only lived with black people but that my best friend was black which I thought might shut them up.
Replied with "that's part of the reason you're overrun with Muslims, they'll be in control soon and you'll be on your knees asking us to pull you out of the poop again like we did with the Germans"
I came back with only 4% of the UK is Muslim and that it was the Russians that really won the war.. "typical commie response, and that's why we run the world now not you".

I then realised that you can't argue with someone who is blind to facts and has their mind made up, I can deal with ignorance but wilfully ignorant is another thing.
It also made me question "free speech" in America, it can be quite disconcerting in fact.
Here it seems to be different, give people a platform on racism and they are usually crushed, allowing the BNP on to question time was a bold move, the correct move and in the end the final nail in their sorry coffins.

Bring in PR, initially I think it will be a bit rubbish with the right having a very big say, but I also think it will make Labour work harder to bring people back to the left, I think all the big parties have become complacent under fptp

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:27 am  

Will be interesting to see whether this 180,000+ who have just paid £25 to vote are Corbyn fans or not. If they are, then you can see why the press / establishment deride him continuously - Labour now has 571,000 members and if the majority are supporting him that suggests people want serious change. It is not an insubstantial number to have made the effort to join and pay £3 / £25. For every one that has signed up there are probably 10 or more that have the same view but can't be bothered.