Re: Wealth re-distribution : Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:21 pm  

tigertot wrote:

So you efficiently & humanely plan social services, health systems, emergency services based on the occasional generosity of rich people, a number whom spend large sums avoiding their tax responsibilities?

No not at all - the current system already provides for that but how do you further redistribute wealth as yet none of you have come up with a coherent idea as to how you are going to achieve that.

So far we have had curtail the opportunities to the truly brilliant because opportunities afforded to them are not available to the normal citizen. Tax the rich - get real, tax corporations again get real. Curtail entrepeneurs again is the state seriously going to generate the wealth required to pump the money into the poor so they don't have to use Aldi they can all access Waitrose? or do we simply close Waitrose More Socialist mumbo-jumbo it's delusional.

Humans are not all the same - take education - there are parents who are prepared to sacrifice holidays/extras to pay for their kids to go to private school or in my case I take out an insurance policy that covered the costs. You would have denied me that opportunity because it isn't available to everyone. A lot of people could do the same if they were prepared to make the same effort but because some don't see it as a priority nobody should be allowed because those kids that do have an unfair advantage - really.

Gates and Buffet have given away the equivilent of the CT take in a year - the amounts given away by rich people is huge - shame the narrow minded on here cannot acknowledge that.

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:44 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

how do you further redistribute wealth as yet none of you have come up with a coherent idea as to how you are going to achieve that

By improving the lives of all citizens, especially the people at the bottom.
Free education, it increases social mobility.
Free properly funded healthcare, it improves living standards.
More social housing, we used to build hundreds of thousands of council houses every year.
Rent controls, other European countries have this.
Free school meals for all, should any children go hungry.
State owned utilities (electricity, gas and water) and state owned transport (railways and buses) private companies running monopolies have been a disaster, they completely rip people off, especially the most vulnerable.

Corporation tax has been reduced over the last 10 years, reverse these tax cuts.
We have virtually no wealth taxes for individuals, we only really tax income, that needs to change.

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:48 pm  

Sir Kevin Sinfield wrote:

By improving the lives of all citizens, especially the people at the bottom.
Free education, it increases social mobility.
Free properly funded healthcare, it improves living standards.
More social housing, we used to build hundreds of thousands of council houses every year.
Rent controls, other European countries have this.
Free school meals for all, should any children go hungry.
State owned utilities (electricity, gas and water) and state owned transport (railways and buses) private companies running monopolies have been a disaster, they completely rip people off, especially the most vulnerable.

Corporation tax has been reduced over the last 10 years, reverse these tax cuts.
We have virtually no wealth taxes for individuals, we only really tax income, that needs to change.

We need to go back to a starting rate of income tax of 33 per cent.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:32 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

No not at all - the current system already provides for that but how do you further redistribute wealth as yet none of you have come up with a coherent idea as to how you are going to achieve that.

So far we have had curtail the opportunities to the truly brilliant because opportunities afforded to them are not available to the normal citizen. Tax the rich - get real, tax corporations again get real. Curtail entrepeneurs again is the state seriously going to generate the wealth required to pump the money into the poor so they don't have to use Aldi they can all access Waitrose? or do we simply close Waitrose More Socialist mumbo-jumbo it's delusional.

Humans are not all the same - take education - there are parents who are prepared to sacrifice holidays/extras to pay for their kids to go to private school or in my case I take out an insurance policy that covered the costs. You would have denied me that opportunity because it isn't available to everyone. A lot of people could do the same if they were prepared to make the same effort but because some don't see it as a priority nobody should be allowed because those kids that do have an unfair advantage - really.

Gates and Buffet have given away the equivilent of the CT take in a year - the amounts given away by rich people is huge - shame the narrow minded on here cannot acknowledge that.

Okay, so we’re incoherent, unrealistic and delusional by your parameters.

But, in fairness, your solution is international fiscal harmonisation. Which in of itself would do little or nothing to change wealth distribution, even if it were feasible. And on the Brexit thread there are some indications that you’re not that keen restrictions on national economic autonomy. S’been fun though.

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:22 am  

Sir Kevin Sinfield wrote:

By improving the lives of all citizens, especially the people at the bottom.
Free education, it increases social mobility.
Free properly funded healthcare, it improves living standards.
More social housing, we used to build hundreds of thousands of council houses every year.
Rent controls, other European countries have this.
Free school meals for all, should any children go hungry.
State owned utilities (electricity, gas and water) and state owned transport (railways and buses) private companies running monopolies have been a disaster, they completely rip people off, especially the most vulnerable.

Corporation tax has been reduced over the last 10 years, reverse these tax cuts.
We have virtually no wealth taxes for individuals, we only really tax income, that needs to change.

How do you improve the life of all citizens?
We have free education - its available to everyone
We have free health care it is also available to everyone - the NHS delivers an amazing service especially if you are truly ill - it doesn't get everything but it gets a lot more right than wrong. You might not get looked after in 4 hours when you think Saturday night is alright for fighting but if you went in to A&E with a heart attack or had been involved in serious vehicle accident you would get seen straight away - there is a clue in its name.
Agree re housing unfortunately this is a very densly populated country and we have a nimby attitude to extending potential urbanisation
If you have more social housing you get your rent controls
Parents should ensure their children eat properly it should be a responsibility you adopt when you decide to have children
State ownership will increase costs to the user and you will see a reduction in quality of service. You will also see a rise in union power - which will lead to increased costs to the end user.
Reverse CT rates and you will see a stagnation/fall in tax revenues - is that really what you want?
What kind of wealth tax do you propose - we have taxes on unearned income e.g. dividends, capital gains etc.

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:24 am  

Dally wrote:

We need to go back to a starting rate of income tax of 33 per cent.

Wow let's put the economy into a permanent tail spin - house repossessing would be at collossal levels and virtually every retailer would be out of business.

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:25 am  

Sir Kevin Sinfield wrote:

By improving the lives of all citizens, especially the people at the bottom.
Free education, it increases social mobility.
Free properly funded healthcare, it improves living standards.
More social housing, we used to build hundreds of thousands of council houses every year.
Rent controls, other European countries have this.
Free school meals for all, should any children go hungry.
State owned utilities (electricity, gas and water) and state owned transport (railways and buses) private companies running monopolies have been a disaster, they completely rip people off, especially the most vulnerable.

Corporation tax has been reduced over the last 10 years, reverse these tax cuts.
We have virtually no wealth taxes for individuals, we only really tax income, that needs to change.

You are definitely living in the wrong country. You could have all that in Russia, bit chilly this time of the year, plus life expectancy is a bit on the low side. But you can’t have everything. Unfortunately you are too late for Venezuela looks like after having years of free stuff they have run out of money.

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:37 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

Okay, so we’re incoherent, unrealistic and delusional by your parameters.

But, in fairness, your solution is international fiscal harmonisation. Which in of itself would do little or nothing to change wealth distribution, even if it were feasible. And on the Brexit thread there are some indications that you’re not that keen restrictions on national economic autonomy. S’been fun though.

Fiscal harmonisation would ensure all profits generated in a country would be taxed in that country that would see a huge increase in CT take as there would be no benefit in unrealistic transfer pricing or management charges or licencing fees etc.

I also suggested a relationship between the top earners and the mean in any business. Encouraging the very rich to give away their fortunes etc.


It seems to me your idea is through some form of state intervention "Social democracy" is to make humans behave differently to their natural state. Restrict the really clever, dumb everything down so the lowest have the same opportunities - yes in my view its completely unrealistic you have to cannot ignore the human desire to progress and beat other humans.

On Brexit I am for leaving - this is a unique country filled with very talented people the idea that it is suddenly going implode because we stop giving billions into a club over which we have very little influence doesn't make sense to me. Will we have short term pain, more than likely, will we come back stronger definitely.

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:49 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

State ownership will increase costs to the user and you will see a reduction in quality of service. You will also see a rise in union power - which will lead to increased costs to the end user.
Reverse CT rates and you will see a stagnation/fall in tax reverrnues - is that really what you want?
What kind of wealth tax do you propose - we have taxes on unearned income e.g. dividends, capital gains etc.

Does state ownership really increase prices and reduce quality of service?? In my experience the complete opposite.

CT - need to place restrictions in interest relief and encourage financing via share capital.

Wealth tax - could start by extending the ATED tax to all dwellings and commercial property held by non-UK entities and individuals.

Re: Wealth re-distribution : Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:38 am  

Backwoodsman wrote:

You are definitely living in the wrong country. You could have all that in Russia, bit chilly this time of the year, plus life expectancy is a bit on the low side. But you can’t have everything. Unfortunately you are too late for Venezuela looks like after having years of free stuff they have run out of money.

How about a quick comparison of the UK and Cuba. Cuba been a poor developing country, the UK the 5th richest in the world, we should compare very favourably.

In the UK there are 320,000 homeless people. 62% of people own their own home, around half of these via a mortgage, many of these mortgages are massive with eye watering amounts to be repaid. There is virtually no homelessness in Cuba, and 85% of Cubans own their homes. Mortgage payments may not exceed 10% of a household's combined income.

In the UK to go to university people borrow around £50,000. In Cuba university education is free.

In the UK we are unable to train enough doctors and nurses with 100,000 vacancies across the nhs.
According to the World Health Organization, Cuba is "known the world over for its ability to train excellent doctors and nurses who can then go out to help other countries in need". There are around 50,000 Cuban-trained health care workers aiding 66 nations. Cuba became the first country to eradicate mother-to-child transmission of HIV.

Now I am not saying we should copy Cuba’s economic polices, but having homeless people, unaffordable housing and massive debts for getting a university education is a choice we have made, it doesn’t have to be like that.