Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:34 am  

Mintball wrote: You need to learn to read. Here is what I responded to: That approach has been spreading. You can equally see it in the rise of small, evangelical churches in the UK – there’s an African and Caribbean influence there too. So where is evangelism mentioned in that paragraph? It followed your point about EVANGELICAL churches. I really don't think you understand what you are talking about. Again, I suggest you look up these words. As for influence and having a role in, the two concepts are different. I can have a role in the running of a school but influence its policy? No. I am not a headteacher or on the senior management team. I have no influence in which school policy is adopted. However, I have a role. I provide my input at staff meetings and practical help in the daily running of the school as a member of the teaching staff. There now. The difference between 'influence' and 'having a role in' explained in simple terms for someone so caught up in their desire to mock somebody else's education that they don't even realise how uneducated they appear themselves.

Mintball wrote: You need to learn to read. Here is what I responded to: That approach has been spreading. You can equally see it in the rise of small, evangelical churches in the UK – there’s an African and Caribbean influence there too. So where is evangelism mentioned in that paragraph? It followed your point about EVANGELICAL churches. I really don't think you understand what you are talking about. Again, I suggest you look up these words. As for influence and having a role in, the two concepts are different. I can have a role in the running of a school but influence its policy? No. I am not a headteacher or on the senior management team. I have no influence in which school policy is adopted. However, I have a role. I provide my input at staff meetings and practical help in the daily running of the school as a member of the teaching staff. There now. The difference between 'influence' and 'having a role in' explained in simple terms for someone so caught up in their desire to mock somebody else's education that they don't even realise how uneducated they appear themselves.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:49 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

As for influence and having a role in, the two concepts are different.

I can have a role in the running of a school but influence its policy? No. I am not a headteacher or on the senior management team. I have no influence in which school policy is adopted. However, I have a role. I provide my input at staff meetings and practical help in the daily running of the school as a member of the teaching staff.

There now. The difference between 'influence' and 'having a role in' explained in simple terms for someone so caught up in their desire to mock somebody else's education that they don't even realise how uneducated they appear themselves.

Oh, no. No.

You said:

SaintsFan wrote:

And nor did I ever claim that religion played no role in policy making in the UK today. I was responding to a post about how influential it was, not that it didn't have a role.

If religion has a role in policy making, it is having an influence. Your clarity of expression is appalling for someone tasked with educating children.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:54 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

Here is what I responded to:

That approach has been spreading. You can equally see it in the rise of small, evangelical churches in the UK – there’s an African and Caribbean influence there too.

So where is evangelism mentioned in that paragraph? It followed your point about EVANGELICAL churches.

So, there isn't a rise in "small, evangelical churches in the UK"? And there isn't an "African and Caribbean influence there too"?

And can you quote where I suggested that African and Caribbean Christianity was not a result of Western missionary work, since you started to lecture me about how it was?

[Kosh]

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:06 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

That could be said about any subject. It is humans who put meaning and importance into subjects.

Correct. Which was my point. Moreover, evolution is so mainstream in western societies that it cannot in any way be considered controversial - except for a relative handful of religious fanatics.

SaintsFan wrote:

The reaction of people can be influential in policy making.

Indeed. But not the point I was making. You seem to have ignored the word minority for a start.

SaintsFan wrote:

Just within schools there are a number of examples where policy has been influenced by the reaction of people: religious education, sex education, citizenship, the content of school meals, to name but four. All these issues divide public opinion. Policy has been made in favour of one opinion or another, not necessarily the majority and sometimes (eg sex ed, content of school meals) as a result of pressure from public opinion.

Just because something has been done before doesn't make it a good idea to do it again or even continue doing it. RE and Sex Ed are two other areas where the opinions of a minority should count for nothing when framing policy. I'm not sure which minority influenced Citizenship BTW, and the content of school meals is based on health and nutrition advice.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:19 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

I thought I'd got it right. The new academies are going to be subject to the same legal and other procedures as other state funded schools, whether faith or non-faith. There is even a specific directive on the admissions procedure for faith schools.

Clearly then all our schools are going to be hijacked by the church.

Quote from the BBC article

"The schools are established as academies, independent of local authorities and with increased control over their curriculum, teachers' pay and conditions, and the length of school terms and days."

It doesn't automatically follow that the church is going to hijack our schools. However what does concern me are the pressure groups like Truth in Science who wish to exert their influence over the teaching of science, particularly evolution. I have followed this "debate" in the USA via many podcasts and these people are not only intellectually dishonest, they are shown to to be outright liars as in Kitzmiller vs Dover. Therefore I do not want such groups getting even the smallest toehold in our schools.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:36 am  

SaintsFan wrote:

... As for influence and having a role in, the two concepts are different.

I can have a role in the running of a school but influence its policy? No. I am not a headteacher or on the senior management team. I have no influence in which school policy is adopted. However, I have a role. I provide my input at staff meetings and practical help in the daily running of the school as a member of the teaching staff.

There now. The difference between 'influence' and 'having a role in' explained in simple terms for someone so caught up in their desire to mock somebody else's education that they don't even realise how uneducated they appear themselves.

Got to love your irrelevant analogy, maybe you should remember that you're not talking to primary school kids here

Do you dispute that the Bishops and religious reps who sit in the House of Lords have both a role and influence?
If you do, then we differ on the constitutional purpose of the House of Lords ... and it ain't me who's got it wrong.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:48 am  

There are currently 24 Lords Spiritual in the HofL.

Con-Libs have 308 out of 789 members, so it is clear that not only do the Lords Spiritual "have a role" in the legislature, they could easily influence it to the point of even holding the casting vote on any measure, depending on which factions support what measure.

Only yesterday, the HofL rejected Government proposals to means test the benefits of young disabled people and cancer patients. Does the ability to reject Government proposals not count as "influence". Does on my planet, and the rare-as-rocking-horse-poo use of the Parliament Acts does not alter that obvious point.

To suggest that a member of the HofL, who actually has a Yes/No vote on whether something is enacted does not have an influence on policy is about as barking as any argument I've ever seen on here.

HofL? More like ROFL!

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:02 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

If religion has a role in policy making, it is having an influence. Your clarity of expression is appalling for someone tasked with educating children.

Good job you aren't an educator then. If children do not understand the nuances of language - and one of the jobs of a teacher is to enable them to understand this - then they will never be in a position to express themselves clearly or ensure they have understood someone else correctly. However, you know all of this but are being obtuse. And silly with your petty insults.

Unions have a role in policy making but how much influence do they have? In the 1970s they had an inordinate amount of influence; sufficient influence in fact to help bring down a government. Today, well, those with extremist leaders can make life very awkward for customers and management alike and so they could be said to have influence but even so their influence is more constrained than it would have once been.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:11 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Got to love your irrelevant analogy, maybe you should remember that you're not talking to primary school kids here

Oh, I know that. If I was talking to primary school children the responses would be of a far higher quality than most of those on here.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:12 pm  

SaintsFan wrote:

... And silly with your petty insults...

I'm no saint, but really – you're the one who announced your arrival on this thread with a pompous and arrogant attitude, lecturing anyone who didn't agree with you and posting snide (and factually misleading) comments about, say, how 'secularists were scared by people with belief'. Unless that was a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, your own understanding of the "nuances" of language leaves a great deal to be desired.

SaintsFan wrote:

Unions have a role in policy making but how much influence do they have? In the 1970s they had an inordinate amount of influence; sufficient influence in fact to help bring down a government. Today, well, those with extremist leaders such as the London Underground ...

"The London Underground" is not a union. And indeed, more than one trades union represents members who work for that company. Still, let's not allow facts or the inability to construct a meaningful sentence interfere, eh?

SaintsFan wrote:

... can make life very awkward for customers and management alike and so they could be said to have influence but even so their influence is more constrained than it would have once been.

Which is not the same as 'has no influence'. [My emphasis] Purleese. So to speak.