Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:55 am  

Mintball wrote:

Wasn't there an outcry at some point because we were importing coal mined by children?

Hey, it was "cheap" who cares?

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:58 am  

cod'ead wrote:

As has been pointed out before, W Germany managed to continue with a strong manufacturing base, despite most industries being heavily unionised.

The cheap, brown coal that we imported from Australia and India may have cost less per tonne than British coal but it was of such poor calorific value that the price difference was negligible when costed on an energy-produced basis and helped push up the cost of producing British steel. Further factor in the extra welfare payments required and it had a negative impact on our economy.

As has also been pointed out before the relationship between the unions and the employers is significantly different to that of what existed and still exists in the UK. This relationship changed significantly at the time of the last major recession in Germany and the balance of power shifted to the employers, the unions in Germany have a very limited power base i.e. they seen the light whereby unrealistic pay and condition demands lead to loss of jobs. It helps when the bosses are also realistic about their own worth.

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:16 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

As has also been pointed out before the relationship between the unions and the employers is significantly different to that of what existed and still exists in the UK. This relationship changed significantly at the time of the last major recession in Germany and the balance of power shifted to the employers, the unions in Germany have a very limited power base i.e. they seen the light whereby unrealistic pay and condition demands lead to loss of jobs. It helps when the bosses are also realistic about their own worth.

The relationship between German trades unions and management has never really changed at all, it never needed to and as has been proved here on numerous occasions, when British unions are invloved in decision making, there's far more chance of a equitable outcome. But please don't let that prevent you from your knocking of everything related to the trades union movement

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:07 pm  

Here's a little thingie to chuck in: how much did the decision by Rupert Murdoch to ban all independent trades unions from NI titles at Wapping, and replace them with an in-hpuse staff association, contribute to a culture of criminal and unethical behaviour being allowed to continue for such a long time?

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:15 pm  

More widely, this is fascinating on what Adam Smith might thing of the current situation.

More widely, this is fascinating on what Adam Smith might thing of the current situation.

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:10 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

The relationship between German trades unions and management has never really changed at all, it never needed to and as has been proved here on numerous occasions, when British unions are invloved in decision making, there's far more chance of a equitable outcome. But please don't let that prevent you from your knocking of everything related to the trades union movement

As usual we must agree to disagree - newsnight did a piece on Karcher about two weeks ago where the issue of union influence was discussed - the boss man explained how the unions had changed their tune significantly in the last 20 years. The collective arrangement still exists but the power had shifted to the bosses, this shift was a major factor in the success of Karcher over the past 20 years. Maybe Karcher are an isolated case - unlikely given the collective bargaining arrangement that has existed for 50+ years. It will be interesting to see how the rise of the Niche unions will impact Germany along with dwindling union membership. Strange how so few people can a see such a good thing as union membership (sic)!!

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:12 pm  

Even Cameron's expected mates aren't happy. Mind, the linked-to FT story about whinging financiers is a hoot.

Even Cameron's expected mates aren't happy. Mind, the linked-to FT story about whinging financiers is a hoot.

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:16 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

... Strange how so few people can a see such a good thing as union membership (sic)!!

Indeed.

It's easy to see why they'd be convinced that the best option is to go, individually, to their employer, say 'please Sir, can I have some more?' and then cry on the internet when the nasty "boss man" [sic] laughs hysterically and sends them out with nothing.

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:17 am  

Ajw71 wrote:

Please explain how the results of the general election in 79 can be a yardstick to measure how great Thatcher was? She hadn't even served a term in office yet...

Oh dear, is that the best you can come up with?
OK, take the next general election.
Having experienced a term under the handbag rule, more people voted against her than for her.
Take the next after that, after people had experienced two terms, more people voted against her than for her.

Ajw71 wrote:

... You disagree about being in a minority, please provide evidence to support your claims, as I have done. ..

See above, I am in the majority.

Re: Is our Commie government losing the plot? : Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:16 pm  

Some data here shows the disparity between votes cast per (main) parties and seats won in the 1983 general election (see fig 2). Table 2 on page 6 shows that, from 1979 to 2005, the average vote share of the winning party was 41.4%.

Some data here shows the disparity between votes cast per (main) parties and seats won in the 1983 general election (see fig 2). Table 2 on page 6 shows that, from 1979 to 2005, the average vote share of the winning party was 41.4%.