Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:56 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The remain campaign said the economy would collapse and we would need an emergency budget with a hike in tax rates if we voted to leave. Something you appear to have omitted from your post? Or are you suggesting that didn't happen?

I've said before and I'll say again - there was lots of pointless rhetoric on both sides; that said, we're hardly in a great place economically are we, despite the spin; the value of the £ has tanked, GDP has risen slightly but that doesn't help inequality, and employment is up, but only because the govt fiddle the figures to exclude lots of people, and to include people who work 1 hour a week on a zero hour contract. Meanwhile, public services are slashed to the bone, the NHS, police, fire service and schools are virtually crippled, homelessness is up, and the number of children living in absolute poverty has risen.

People voted for three main things: Control of the borders, control of law making, not having to make to make financial contributions to the EU. All of these are definitely deliverable in a leave situation.

Which laws negatively impacted you? What don't you like about immigration? How much of the EU contribution was wasted do you think?

For me no deal could be detrimental short term, however long term the growth economies are not in Europe and could we do better deals with these countries outside of the EU that would benefit us more longer term.

See you're doing exactly what I described - we *could* do better deals; as an independent, largely irrelevant island that is no longer the gateway to the European market, you expect the growing Tiger economies to bend over for us? They may well offer trade deals - but they'll want favourable tarrifs, relaxation of standards and protections, and probably a shitload of visas. And it will take years to resolve, as these things do.

It's fantasy land.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:01 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The remain campaign said the economy would collapse and we would need an emergency budget with a hike in tax rates if we voted to leave. Something you appear to have omitted from your post? Or are you suggesting that didn't happen?

People voted for three main things: Control of the borders, control of law making, not having to make to make financial contributions to the EU. All of these are definitely deliverable in a leave situation.

For me no deal could be detrimental short term, however long term the growth economies are not in Europe and could we do better deals with these countries outside of the EU that would benefit us more longer term.

This is ok but, necessarily, we are making it more difficult to trade with our closest and largest market, which is crazy.
Unless the promises of a free trade deal with the EU AND the ability to trade everywhere else with supremely beneficial trade deals, all of which will take multiple years to set up.
The picture sole by leave suggested zero down side and yet, our current government's new best buddies (the DUP) seem to have a significantly different view and the Irish Border certainly wasn't mentioned during the referendum campaign (by either side).
The deal with the EU has to give the UK less preferential terms (if only to prevent other countries from trying to leave) and we still come back to a fundamental situation thet, there isn't a hope in hell of the UK using preferential trading terms with say India/ China, to gain commercial benefit, to supply certain good back into the EU - It wont happen.

Also, from the debacle that we have all witnessed so far (the negotiations with the EU 27), do you really think that the UK will do better then the EU when negotiating with the "rest of the world" ? really ?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:03 pm  

post wrote:

By giving us a bad deal or nothing.

What is a bad deal? You have not stated one issue despite being pretty certain they are screwing us & giving us a bad deal.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:09 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

For me no deal could be detrimental short term, however long term the growth economies are not in Europe and could we do better deals with these countries outside of the EU that would benefit us more longer term.

Why would those countries give us a better deal than a deal with 27 other countries combined with a significantly bigger market? Is it cos we won the war?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:27 pm  

post wrote:

By giving us a bad deal or nothing.

But it is broadly in line with what other countries have, who are beyond all of May’s red lines. It’s what we (well, our PM) asked for. It isn’t remotely punitive, imo. I don’t think it is even an especially bad deal, under the circumstances - although obviously it can be seen as such by people who still want to remain, or who imagined our special, ambitious, bespoke deal would somehow give us something like the best of both worlds.

The thing about going off and seeing if you can do better by yourself, is that you can’t really blame the ones you’re leaving for not going out of their way to make your life easier.

The backstop for the border between NI and Ireland is a unique difficulty, but not one of the of the EU’s making.

I mean, really - what did you expect?

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:34 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

But it is broadly in line with what other countries have, who are beyond all of May’s red lines. It’s what we (well, our PM) asked for. It isn’t remotely punitive, imo. I don’t think it is even an especially bad deal, under the circumstances - although obviously it can be seen as such by people who still want to remain, or who imagined our special, ambitious, bespoke deal would somehow give us something like the best of both worlds.

The thing about going off and seeing if you can do better by yourself, is that you can’t really blame the ones you’re leaving for not going out of their way to make your life easier.

The backstop for the border between NI and Ireland is a unique difficulty, but not one of the of the EU’s making.

I mean, really - what did you expect?

Please don't help this muppet answer the questions. He has made 2 clear statements that are fundamental to what the majority of the xenophobes believe but when questioned cannot provide a grain of evidence.

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:35 pm  

And so the merry go round starts again.

To say no deal is possibly going to be beneficial in the long term is like saying in 1911 that ocean liner passenger safety is going to improve after the Titanic.

Why not avoid the iceberg?

I've been involved in emergency planning and response for 13 years for the Police, Local Authorities, NHS, Red Cross and Central Government. I've dealt with incidents from terrorism to flooding to infectious disease outbreaks. Never have I come across a situation where something that will require a national Major Incident response for at least 6 months is allowed to happen when it could be averted. It's like witnessing a slow motion car crash where the drivers can stop it happening at any time but plough on regardless.

Allowing no deal will be political suicide for any government that allows it to occur. It's a shame that it will have to occur for people to see it.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:42 pm  

Bullseye wrote:

Allowing no deal will be political suicide for any government that allows it to occur.

Really? Capitalist greed caused the world's biggest financial disaster. The poor paid for it through austerity. The Tories got back in power. I am in no doubt that leaving with no deal would be disastrous, but you can be sure the MSM would not blame Brexit. It would be the EU - see Post's posts - the unions, greedy workers, immigrants, the Labour party, environmentalists, vegans.....anyone else.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:50 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

or who imagined our special, ambitious, bespoke deal would somehow give us something like the best of both worlds

Did they imagine that, or were they explicitly told it by charlatans like David Davis, or disaster capitalists like Rees-Mogg, and believed it because, in true public schoolboy style, if you spew any old rubbish with sufficient confidence, long words and a plummy accent, the plebs will take it on good faith?

We've been had.

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:54 pm  

tigertot wrote: Really? Capitalist greed caused the world's biggest financial disaster. The poor paid for it through austerity. The Tories got back in power. I am in no doubt that leaving with no deal would be disastrous, but you can be sure the MSM would not blame Brexit. It would be the EU - see Post's posts - the unions, greedy workers, immigrants, the Labour party, environmentalists, vegans.....anyone else. I'm sure you're right initially. I expect with the benefit of 50-100 years people will see the light. Right around the time Jacob Rees Mogg reckons it might be when we start to see whether it was worth it or not. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 86f48e3566 I'm very disappointed with the MSM. Their coverage of Brexit preparations has been woeful. There are lots of juicy stories too if they could drag themselves away from Westminster for a moment and do some digging. Fact is you can prepare your backside off for no deal but it would cost far more than the £5bn already put aside for it to do it anywhere near properly. At some point you have to ask if it's so expensive and time consuming why do it? It's like building another Titanic to be the lifeboat for the Titanic when we could just avoid the iceberg. I promise no more Titanic analogies now.

tigertot wrote: Really? Capitalist greed caused the world's biggest financial disaster. The poor paid for it through austerity. The Tories got back in power. I am in no doubt that leaving with no deal would be disastrous, but you can be sure the MSM would not blame Brexit. It would be the EU - see Post's posts - the unions, greedy workers, immigrants, the Labour party, environmentalists, vegans.....anyone else. I'm sure you're right initially. I expect with the benefit of 50-100 years people will see the light. Right around the time Jacob Rees Mogg reckons it might be when we start to see whether it was worth it or not. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 86f48e3566 I'm very disappointed with the MSM. Their coverage of Brexit preparations has been woeful. There are lots of juicy stories too if they could drag themselves away from Westminster for a moment and do some digging. Fact is you can prepare your backside off for no deal but it would cost far more than the £5bn already put aside for it to do it anywhere near properly. At some point you have to ask if it's so expensive and time consuming why do it? It's like building another Titanic to be the lifeboat for the Titanic when we could just avoid the iceberg. I promise no more Titanic analogies now.