Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:20 am  

100% Wire wrote:

Serious trouble for who? It was shot down by militants, not by an official army of a country.

This illustrates perfectly the reason why when, for example,Russia wants to take over the Crimea and seize its airports, they do so by sending troops with no identifying signs: it sounds bizarre, but they know that this lets thousands ludicrously come up with stuff like "You got no PROOF its them". That is true. There could have been a fully equipped, highly trained, led and organized army of Ukrainian rebels secretly sitting about for decades, which nobody noticed. And like the BUK missile launcher that shot down the aircraft, they could've got all their high-tech weaponry from Guns'R'uz. There's no connection between "the rebels" and Russia whatsoever. Oh, no. Provided, that is, you have the swallowing capacity of a basking shark.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:25 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

This illustrates perfectly the reason why when, for example,Russia wants to take over the Crimea and seize its airports, they do so by sending troops with no identifying signs: it sounds bizarre, but they know that this lets thousands ludicrously come up with stuff like "You got no PROOF its them". That is true. There could have been a fully equipped, highly trained, led and organized army of Ukrainian rebels secretly sitting about for decades, which nobody noticed. And like the BUK missile launcher that shot down the aircraft, they could've got all their high-tech weaponry from Guns'R'uz. There's no connection between "the rebels" and Russia whatsoever. Oh, no. Provided, that is, you have the swallowing capacity of a basking shark.

Haven't the Ukrainians admitted that a BUK missile launcher could have been among the materiel acquired by seperatists when the took over Eastern Ukraine? Although it is of Russian manufacture the source is still undetermined

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:29 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Haven't the Ukrainians admitted that a BUK missile launcher could have been among the materiel acquired by seperatists when the took over Eastern Ukraine? Although it is of Russian manufacture the source is still undetermined

I'm not sure it matters that much where it comes from but on the stuff I've read following this story, the separatists were bragging recently that they had "captured" it, and posting images of it. So I assume it is more probably a Ukrainian captured one, and would imagine that Putin is mightily pisssed off at one being used to down a civilian airliner wherever they got it from. But the fact is, the separatists are basically proxy Russian forces and so while i don't believe Putin would have ordered it nor that his forces would have made the mistake of hitting such a wrong target, equally it doesn't smack of keeping your attack/subversion dogs on a tight leash.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:04 pm  

Throw in a comment I heard on the radio today about the whole region being full of bored young mercenaries looking for anyone to employ them to stir up trouble, murder on command and generally swagger around like Putin in an all male sauna, for $100 dollars a day and you can see how random acts of inexplicable violence can happen with million dollar weapons being left lying around and no-one in charge.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:40 am  

Cronus wrote:

I think the wider issue is that IF pro-Russians have shot it down, Russia have almost certainly supplied the weapons. There's been a build up of Russian hardware in recent days and concern the separatists are being massively bolstered by Russian weapons and perhaps manpower once again.

The US has already stiffened their sanctions against Russia, if the above is proven to be the case you can expect wider reaching consequences.

Edit: looking more likely this is the case. Russian-backed separatist leader Igor Girkin posted pictures of the smoke plumes boasting of the shooting down of an aircraft, saying "The plane has just been taken down somewhere around Torez (Donetsk Oblast). It lays there behind the Progress mine. We did warn you – do not fly in 'our sky,'". The post has been deleted and he's in full denial mode.

The Ukrainians have also released recordings of phone calls which appear to show pro-Russians stating they (or more specifically, Kazaks) have shot down an aircraft, later confirming they have found many bodies and it's actually a civilian aircraft. The calls are allegedly between a separatist commander and a 'colonel of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation', Vasili Geranin.

As I heard it, the reference was to Cossacks, not Kazaks.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:07 pm  

This is becoming an astonishing sequence of events. First pro-Russians shoot the aircraft down - little doubt it was them - then the situation becomes a mix of the shocking, the farcical and the dangerous with militia robbing from the dead, removing evidence including the black boxes, getting drunk and leaving empty bottles at the crash site, firing weapons over the heads of and denying access to air crash investigators, lumping bodies around and stacking them into refrigeration wagons. Now the UN Security Council is being forced to draft resolutions to get somewhere. I realise this is a war zone, but the crash site is hardly on the front line.

Russia and their friends are showing their true colours. Where's LeighGionaire with his laughable pro-Russki rants and blind and foolish devotion to "impartial" RT reporting? I note another RT reporter has quit due to the lies they are asked to spout.

Putin could have put this to bed early with strong, clear and reasonable leadership, but he's let it drag out with staggering arrogance. Truly and utterly disgusting, as the entire world is bearing witness to.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:52 pm  

I can't stop thinking about this, and the poor people on board. It might seem a little morbid, and I apologise if I offend anyone, but I can't help wondering about the moment of impact, what went through the minds of the passengers, and if any of them would have been unfortunate enough to still be conscious as they fell to earth. It's a horrifying thought, and one I'm struggling to get out of my mind.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:08 pm  

Nothus wrote:

I can't stop thinking about this, and the poor people on board. It might seem a little morbid, and I apologise if I offend anyone, but I can't help wondering about the moment of impact, what went through the minds of the passengers, and if any of them would have been unfortunate enough to still be conscious as they fell to earth. It's a horrifying thought, and one I'm struggling to get out of my mind.

don't have nightmares

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:03 pm  

Nothus wrote:

I can't stop thinking about this, and the poor people on board. It might seem a little morbid, and I apologise if I offend anyone, but I can't help wondering about the moment of impact, what went through the minds of the passengers, and if any of them would have been unfortunate enough to still be conscious as they fell to earth. It's a horrifying thought, and one I'm struggling to get out of my mind.

Whilst a little OT this makes me think of the space shuttle disasters. I think it was both (can't remember for certain if it was both, but definitely one of them) Discovery & Columbia where they think the crew were still alive and conscious when they hit the ground.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:11 am  

A former director of the CIA was on Charlie Rose last night. He said that it was either a Russian BUK missile which they'd supplied to the separatists, or it was a Ukrainian BUK which the separatists had managed to take from them.

So no matter whether whether the BUK missiles were from the Russians or Ukrainians , it was the Russians who are to blame.