Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:06 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

Give over, they are new houses, for recently-moved families, built using Israeli government cash.

Please, trace the conversation back.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:02 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Why?
In particular, North America in what is now the USA.
Indigeneous population moved aside to make way for settlers ... and when they fight back they are met with massively violent retribution.

Sounds similar to me.

It's superficially similar - which is why it was used - but only if you choose to ignore important cultural and legal differences between the two situations.

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:24 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Please, trace the conversation back.

I have.
You seem to be saying that Jewish settlements in the West Bank are not Israeli settlements.
That is what I say is incorrect.

Have I misinterpreted what you said?

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:26 pm  

Kosh wrote:

It's superficially similar - which is why it was used - but only if you choose to ignore important cultural and legal differences between the two situations.

Carry on with differences please ...

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:34 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

I have.
You seem to be saying that Jewish settlements in the West Bank are not Israeli settlements.
That is what I say is incorrect.

Have I misinterpreted what you said?

I am referring specifically to the map which i quoted, which used Israeli and Jewish as synonyms. They clealry couldnt not have been Israeli settlements, because the reason they are labelled Jewish, and not Isreali is because at the time, the state of Israel did not exist.

I said, that I didn’t think that specific map was helpful, or useful, or right, to equate a jewish settlement with the state of Israell, especially as there couldn’t possibly be a link between the two as the state of Israel didn’t exist at the time. I went on to say you could probably produce a similar one showing the growth of islam in the UK, but I probably wouldn’t like the people who would choose to do that nor there reasons for doing so.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:55 pm  

El Barbudo wrote: Carry on with differences please ... Okey Dokey... For a start, the history of the colonisation of North America and what happen to the indigenous peoples is a lot more complex and nuanced than you and Mugwump appear to think. This site provides some interesting reading. Next up, the native American tribes had no concept of soldiers and civilians. All members of an enemy tribe were legitimate targets during hostilities, and hence all 'white' settlers were legitimate targets during the periods of conflict between them. Further, the level of coordination between war bands was frequently very loose indeed and if some overstepped the mark by the standards of the day it would rarely have been the result of a deliberate policy by whatever leadership was in force at the time. Now the blindingly obvious one... Hamas and Israel are operating, at least notionally, within the framework of International Law. This defines what we, globally, now deem acceptable or not. Attacks against civilian targets are not acceptable. The same did not apply during the time of the early settlement of North America. That's all I have time for at the moment.

El Barbudo wrote: Carry on with differences please ... Okey Dokey... For a start, the history of the colonisation of North America and what happen to the indigenous peoples is a lot more complex and nuanced than you and Mugwump appear to think. This site provides some interesting reading. Next up, the native American tribes had no concept of soldiers and civilians. All members of an enemy tribe were legitimate targets during hostilities, and hence all 'white' settlers were legitimate targets during the periods of conflict between them. Further, the level of coordination between war bands was frequently very loose indeed and if some overstepped the mark by the standards of the day it would rarely have been the result of a deliberate policy by whatever leadership was in force at the time. Now the blindingly obvious one... Hamas and Israel are operating, at least notionally, within the framework of International Law. This defines what we, globally, now deem acceptable or not. Attacks against civilian targets are not acceptable. The same did not apply during the time of the early settlement of North America. That's all I have time for at the moment.

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:21 pm  

Anyone opened a book yet on the next time Israel will decide it's necessary to murder a few children? The next election after this coming one, perhaps? After all, it's usually just before an election.

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:06 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Anyone opened a book yet on the next time Israel will decide it's necessary to murder a few children? The next election after this coming one, perhaps? After all, it's usually just before an election.

I hope CORNISH doesn't see this as he'll go mad.

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:26 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Anyone opened a book yet on the next time Israel will decide it's necessary to murder a few children? The next election after this coming one, perhaps? After all, it's usually just before an election.

According to the BBC news today, Israel are observing the ceasefire while 20 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza, if one of these lands on a primary school, it could be a lot of dead kids. Fortunately they won't be Arab kids, just Jews.

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:22 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

I am referring specifically to the map which i quoted, which used Israeli and Jewish as synonyms. They clealry couldnt not have been Israeli settlements, because the reason they are labelled Jewish, and not Isreali is because at the time, the state of Israel did not exist.

I said, that I didn’t think that specific map was helpful, or useful, or right, to equate a jewish settlement with the state of Israell, especially as there couldn’t possibly be a link between the two as the state of Israel didn’t exist at the time. I went on to say you could probably produce a similar one showing the growth of islam in the UK, but I probably wouldn’t like the people who would choose to do that nor there reasons for doing so.

This map?



Far from conflating Jewish and Israeli land, it seems pretty clear to me: prior to the creation of the state of Israel, Jewish occupied land is labeled as such. Follwing the creation of the state of Israel, Israeli occupied and controlled land is labeled as such. It may have helped if they had produced a map for each year since 1946 but that's hardly practical is it