[Mild Rover]

Re: Education, education, education and war : Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:02 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Whether its Socialism, Marxism, Communism it is about central control - they know what's best and those that can play the political game do best not those who generate most - does that remind you of any organisation? Its a race to the bottom - not bring the bottom up its bring the top down - that's the essential difference between left and right - we have never found a better way of improving overall wealth than Capitalism yet the likes of you despise it yet enjoy its benefits?

I think you’re describing authoritarianism, and that is not unique to the left by any means.

I don’t despise capitalism. I do lean to the left by UK standards and even in a rational capitalist system I‘d have significant concerns about the distribution of the wealth it generates, over the longer term.

My main criticism now, which seems to be shared by some capitalist theoreticians, is that our current capitalistic system is often irrational, corrupted and/or open to being gamed. That is, there’s too much incentive to play the system rather than to generate real value or, more narrowly, new wealth.

Right is used to cover a broadly capatalist-nationalist alliance. Brexit exposes tensions and contradictions within that broad position. Being a broad position, there’s no surprise it has such... complexity. There are tensions between my socialist-lite and liberal opinions on some issues, I don’t doubt. And, of course, my occasional preference for a policy from the right.

Out of interest, if the two choices available to you were being a citizen of capitalist United States of Europe or of a socialist United Kingdom, which would you prefer, hypothetically?

Re: Education, education, education and war : Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:47 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Your struggle with comprehension continues - the "lefty" refers to the notion that lefties know what's best for us all and we should bow down to their superior knowledge (sic).

I believe in free trade; all you can come up with are vast armies of straw men about how "socialism" is actually authoritarianism and a threat to our capitalist way and life (I mean honestly, it's madness - do you really think we live in a purely capitalist country now? Are you that far out of touch with reality?) and some amazing rubbish which appears to involve anyone who knows stuff should pipe down because expertise is not a value we require any more.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:52 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

Out of interest, if the two choices available to you were being a citizen of capitalist United States of Europe or of a socialist United Kingdom, which would you prefer, hypothetically?

I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:08 pm  

What you are saying is that if it was a Labour government giving itself additional powers to run people’s lives you would not accept it because the Conservatives appear to be doing exactly that. They have in the time since Johnson was elected severely limited public freedoms and also restricted debate despite the promise the parliament would regain its sovereignty. We are now closer to any totalitarian state in our history. I wonder when the pandemic is over which it will eventually be despite this government’s many failures how many of these new laws will be rescinded.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Education, education, education and war : Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:43 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote: I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes. It is a silly question in a few ways. It depends on the degree of capitalism and socialism. And obviously socialist systems can be irrational, corrupt and prone to being gamed as well. I’d take well-regulated capitalism over badly designed socialism everyday. However it did make me think about my own order of priorities. I lean toward internationalism, especially when we face so many global challenges - but would I put that ahead of a more equitable society in the UK? Another random thought on your point the UK socialist programmes. The right view privatisation of the rail network as sensible and desirable. Generally speaking, obviously they’re not all of one mind. But nobody ever floats privatising the whole road network. Or not that I’ve seen, at least. I Google it now. There’s the M6 toll, of course. Edit - actually there was a little flurry of articles through 2012 and 2013, and the Cameron govt seemed to be thinking about it. One example... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17429483

The Ghost of '99 wrote: I think you've just blown his mind with those two options - he doesn't even know that the UK is already full of "socialist" programmes. It is a silly question in a few ways. It depends on the degree of capitalism and socialism. And obviously socialist systems can be irrational, corrupt and prone to being gamed as well. I’d take well-regulated capitalism over badly designed socialism everyday. However it did make me think about my own order of priorities. I lean toward internationalism, especially when we face so many global challenges - but would I put that ahead of a more equitable society in the UK? Another random thought on your point the UK socialist programmes. The right view privatisation of the rail network as sensible and desirable. Generally speaking, obviously they’re not all of one mind. But nobody ever floats privatising the whole road network. Or not that I’ve seen, at least. I Google it now. There’s the M6 toll, of course. Edit - actually there was a little flurry of articles through 2012 and 2013, and the Cameron govt seemed to be thinking about it. One example... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17429483

Re: Education, education, education and war : Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:21 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I believe in free trade; all you can come up with are vast armies of straw men about how "socialism" is actually authoritarianism and a threat to our capitalist way and life (I mean honestly, it's madness - do you really think we live in a purely capitalist country now? Are you that far out of touch with reality?) and some amazing rubbish which appears to involve anyone who knows stuff should pipe down because expertise is not a value we require any more.

Not at all - you have a valid opinion - what seems to be the case is you are suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with your view of the world is stupid - especially if they voted to leave the EU.

We have a mixed economy but it is the capitalist businesses that drive wealth generation - surely even you can see that? The money it generates allows for taxes to be collected to provide all those touchy/feely services you so admire.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:23 am  

Scarlet Pimpernell wrote:

What you are saying is that if it was a Labour government giving itself additional powers to run people’s lives you would not accept it because the Conservatives appear to be doing exactly that. They have in the time since Johnson was elected severely limited public freedoms and also restricted debate despite the promise the parliament would regain its sovereignty. We are now closer to any totalitarian state in our history. I wonder when the pandemic is over which it will eventually be despite this government’s many failures how many of these new laws will be rescinded.

You know like everyone else these are temporary measures in an extreme situation.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:21 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

You know like everyone else these are temporary measures in an extreme situation.

How do you think the talks are going, Sa and what happens to the Irish Border in a "no deal" scenario.
One of the major issues right at the outset, 4 years later, oven ready deal and not a step closer to a sensible resolution.

Assuming that there isn't a comprehensive FTA sorted and it looks less likely at the moment, just what do you think will happen with cross border trade ?

Re: Education, education, education and war : Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:33 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

How do you think the talks are going, Sa and what happens to the Irish Border in a "no deal" scenario.
One of the major issues right at the outset, 4 years later, oven ready deal and not a step closer to a sensible resolution.

Assuming that there isn't a comprehensive FTA sorted and it looks less likely at the moment, just what do you think will happen with cross border trade ?

The talks are going as well as you would expect - probably not as you expected? You probably thought that we would roll over and agree to anything to get a free trade deal - I suspect so did the EU.

State aid - get real - nobody worse than the Germans for state intervention e.g. Lufthansa!! I don't know how they have the cheek to demand as an independent state we cow down to them.

On Ireland its simple - just ensure any product that goes into the EU meets their standards and the local standards authority deal with an breaches as is the case with product that comes here from outside of the EU - we seem to want to make things more difficult than they need to be.

On fishing - I would concede as part of the deal and move on

Re: Education, education, education and war : Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:18 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The talks are going as well as you would expect - probably not as you expected? You probably thought that we would roll over and agree to anything to get a free trade deal - I suspect so did the EU.

State aid - get real - nobody worse than the Germans for state intervention e.g. Lufthansa!! I don't know how they have the cheek to demand as an independent state we cow down to them.

On Ireland its simple - just ensure any product that goes into the EU meets their standards and the local standards authority deal with an breaches as is the case with product that comes here from outside of the EU - we seem to want to make things more difficult than they need to be.

On fishing - I would concede as part of the deal and move on

I dont/didn't want us to roll over at all.
Having been told so damn often just how easy it would be to get a free trade agreement with the EU and that the issues surrounding the Irish Border would be solved, it seemed reasonable to expect that this would indeed be the outcome.

Sadly, it just doesn't look to be the case (although to some of us, it never did).

Right from the outset we (the voting public) were sold a pup and in 3 years plus since the referendum NOTHING has changed.
If I was part of the EU side, who have way more to gain from this than the UK, I would sit tight.

Let's face it, they have lost the UK's contributions and their economy dwarfs that of the UK
Just think how you may feel when/if Scotland goes it alone, you certainly wouldn't want / expect England to concede too much ground in the negotiations and the current situation is similar.

Those on the right of the Tory party have done a fantastic job

The "frictionless trade" promised so often is just another myth.
The likelihood of tariffs and additional cost for importing from the EU is certainly real, even in my own business there are costs already racking up, trying to prepare for what may come and to not know what we need in just 12/14 weeks time is bloody scandalous.
But, what the hell, it's only money.