Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:21 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

This map?



Far from conflating Jewish and Israeli land, it seems pretty clear to me: prior to the creation of the state of Israel, Jewish occupied land is labeled as such. Follwing the creation of the state of Israel, Israeli occupied and controlled land is labeled as such. It may have helped if they had produced a map for each year since 1946 but that's hardly practical is it

Im not sure what the relevance of what was Jewish land, to what is Israel is relevant. It gives the impression that a comparison between 'Jewish land'(and im not actually sure what this means in practice here? Majority Jew? only Jew? Jewish owned? What does Palestinian land mean in relation here aswell?) in 1946 and the state of Israel in 2000 is the growth of 'Jewish land' or a growth of Isreal which isnt true, and is misleading. It treats two different things as the same thing.

I also think that including the UN partition plan and 1947-67 is misleading aswell, Firstly because the UN partition plan wasnt actual reality, it was a partition plan, not what was actually true in 1947, secondly because 1947-67 doesnt make sense really, is it just 1967? the average over this period? its strange to choose such a long timeframe,

Re: Lest we forget : Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:49 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Im not sure what the relevance of what was Jewish land, to what is Israel is relevant. It gives the impression that a comparison between 'Jewish land'(and im not actually sure what this means in practice here? Majority Jew? only Jew? Jewish owned? What does Palestinian land mean in relation here aswell?) in 1946 and the state of Israel in 2000 is the growth of 'Jewish land' or a growth of Isreal which isnt true, and is misleading. It treats two different things as the same thing.

I also think that including the UN partition plan and 1947-67 is misleading aswell, Firstly because the UN partition plan wasnt actual reality, it was a partition plan, not what was actually true in 1947, secondly because 1947-67 doesnt make sense really, is it just 1967? the average over this period? its strange to choose such a long timeframe,

Really......?!

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:24 am  

SmokeyTA wrote:

...I also think that including the UN partition plan and 1947-67 is misleading aswell, Firstly because the UN partition plan wasnt actual reality, it was a partition plan, not what was actually true in 1947, secondly because 1947-67 doesnt make sense really, is it just 1967? the average over this period? its strange to choose such a long timeframe,

The third map is a 1967 snapshot.
Comparison with the fourth map shows the extent of the Israeli settlements across the West Bbank that I have been talking about.
The 1967 borders are important because they have been, for several decades now, the baseline for talks for the two-state solution.
My interpretation of events of the last few decades is that, regardless of what they say, Israel does not want a two-state solution, preferring rather to have a policy of constant encroachment across the West Bank and a squeezing of Gaza towards some kind of elimination, possibly by adoption into Egypt, aiming towards a non-existence of Palestine as any kind of state.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:29 pm  

rover49 wrote:

According to the BBC news today, Israel are observing the ceasefire while 20 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza, if one of these lands on a primary school, it could be a lot of dead kids. Fortunately they won't be Arab kids, just Jews.

Lets not forget though that Israel immediately set about rounding up and arresting dozens of people at the start of the ceasefire. Add to that the shooting and wounding of 6 palestinians since the start of the ceasfire. Then to start Friday off they shoot and kill a 23 yr old. Shot in the head just to make sure. Are the Israelis really abiding by the ceasefire?
Isn't this exactly what the Palestinians complain about day in day out?

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:54 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

The third map is a 1967 snapshot.
Comparison with the fourth map shows the extent of the Israeli settlements across the West Bbank that I have been talking about.
The 1967 borders are important because they have been, for several decades now, the baseline for talks for the two-state solution.

And I don’t doubt that a snapshot at two times showing the size of state of Israel is a valid comparison. I have yet to see the relevance of ‘jewish land’ and ‘something that may have happened but didn’t really’ have to that,

I also think there is a clear reason that map is labelled as 1947-67, and not just 1967, or more usefully, pre-’67 war, I also think that labelling those areas as Palestinian, rather than Egyption, Jordanian and Syrian which they were, is also misleading. I also think it is misleading to compare pre ’67 war and 2000, which ignores Isreal forcibly evacuating its own citizens in 2005.


For no other reason than propaganda purposes that Map invents two countries that didnt exist, jewishland and palestine, ignore three which did, Egypt, Syria and Jordan, has a representation of something which isnt reality, and deliberately chooses two dates to exagerrate the issue. Im not sure why this is useful, or helpful to anyone.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:47 pm  

rover49 wrote:

According to the BBC news today, Israel are observing the ceasefire while 20 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza, if one of these lands on a primary school, it could be a lot of dead kids. Fortunately they won't be Arab kids, just Jews.

I assume that, if someone waltzed into your home, threw you out of it and said that, on the basis of some ancient fairy tale, it was no longer yours, you'd be entirely happy: yes?

Is it also safe to assume that, if you were blockaded into your town, with restrictions not simply on movement, but on being able to get basic goods, you'd simply roll over and let yourself be f*cked: yes?

If you answer 'no' to one or both of these question, why do you expect Palestinians to behave differently than you'd behave?

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:49 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

... For no other reason than propaganda purposes that Map invents two countries that didnt exist, jewishland and palestine, ignore three which did, Egypt, Syria and Jordan, has a representation of something which isnt reality, and deliberately chooses two dates to exagerrate the issue. Im not sure why this is useful, or helpful to anyone.

What those maps do is to show, quite clearly, that the Palestinian people have been shoved off their land and out of their homes.

Very progressive of you to support this and, by default, a form of right-wing, racist, nationalist neo-fascism that inflicts a form of apartheid on a group of people.

Did you also believe that black South Africans should just have bent over and taken it from behind and, like Margaret Thatcher, that the ANC and Nelson Mandela were a bunch of terrorists?

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:32 pm  

Mintball wrote:

What those maps do is to show, quite clearly, that the Palestinian people have been shoved off their land and out of their homes.

Except they dont, they show a hell of a lot of nonsense and conflate many things to present one side of a story. It doesnt help anything or anyone.

Very progressive of you to support this and, by default, a form of right-wing, racist, nationalist neo-fascism that inflicts a form of apartheid on a group of people.

I have little sympathy for terrorists. That includes the Isreali government as well as hamas. It does the Palestinian cause no good to make things up about the situation. Generally people aren’t stupid enough for it. And those that are, then begin to distrust the information they are being given when they learn about things like the nearly 1m Jewish refugees forced out of their homes, who lost everything, sneaking across borders with nothing more than what they were wearing when they were forced out of Arab nations. It makes it easier to hide a form of right-wing, racist, nationalist neo-fascism that inflicts a form of apartheid on a group of people, when it is done in response to terrorists lobbing rockets indiscriminately or planting bombs on civilian buses and running away, or walking into restaurants and murdering people. Its hard to see a brave Palestinian resistance when they use such cowardly, abhorrent tactics.

And just to head off the standard response, no it doesn’t justify some of what the Israeli government do, but what the Israeli government do doesn’t justify Hamas’ actions either.

Did you also believe that black South Africans should just have bent over and taken it from behind and, like Margaret Thatcher, that the ANC and Nelson Mandela were a bunch of terrorists?

Madiba's mission During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to the struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die

Hamas charter article 8 Allah is its goal, the Prophet is the model, the Qur'an its constitution, jihad its path, and death for the sake of Allah its most sublime belief
Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer "But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

I would counter that it is very progressive of you to support a movement whose thoughts on women are Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role in looking after the family, rearing the children and embuing them with moral values and thoughts derived from Islam. She has to teach them to perform the religious duties in preparation for the role of fighting awaiting them. That is why it is necessary to pay great attention to schools and the curriculum followed in educating Moslem girls, so that they would grow up to be good mothers, aware of their role in the battle of liberation.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:03 pm  

Just seen a video on a well known file sharing website by Gerald Kaufman ( who is Jewish ) having a right go at the Israeli Government for what has gone on since this latest flare up has gone off. He wasn't happy with one of the Israeli army chiefs as well who said that 500 of the dead are terrorists and likening it to the Nazis. I bet Mr. Kaufman gets some stick for that.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:06 pm  

Mintball wrote:

I assume that, if someone waltzed into your home, threw you out of it and said that, on the basis of some ancient fairy tale, it was no longer yours, you'd be entirely happy: yes?

Is it also safe to assume that, if you were blockaded into your town, with restrictions not simply on movement, but on being able to get basic goods, you'd simply roll over and let yourself be f*cked: yes?

If you answer 'no' to one or both of these question, why do you expect Palestinians to behave differently than you'd behave?

I'd be highly pi$$ed off, yes. I'd like to think I wouldn't start killing random civilians though.