Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:32 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Another interesting aspect they claimed was that several of the passports he'd found were clipped, i.e had expired and could no longer be used.

I used to carry a 'clipped' passport along with my current one when visiting the US. The expired passport held my indefinite US visa

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:33 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Do any of you buy into the conspiracy theories around this one?

No

I watched a video a mate sent me yesterday and there are quite a few 'oh, didn't think of that' moments, although I don't for one moment believe it's made up to frame Russia and get the world to support a sanctions-based war with them. The conspiracy theorists are very good though, I think they need to take on a career in hollywood.

War with Russia would be such a good idea of course.

Their first claim of proof of a cover up is the video footage of the passports. The very first video screened in the US (Apart from the smoke plumes) was of a guy showing the camera passports, flicking them open and showing the names. Pristine passports from about 20 passengers. Passports from people confirmed to be on the plane and at different ends according to the seat plan. Yet this guy had found them within 40 minutes of the crash, despite the wreckage being strewn over 8 miles.

The Sky footage showed a lot of stuff was pristine still, and Colin Brazier even picked some of it up to show us. Why would a passport be the only thing not to be pristine? Presumably the theorist had done a computer mock up of exactly how the plane blew up and crashed to show us how it's impossible that they could be near each other from opposite ends of the plane too.

Mo Farah can run 6 miles in 27 minutes, and unless one document was at one end of the 8 mile stretch and the other was exactly 8 miles away, it's not implausible that the documents could have been retrieved in 40 minutes or so.

Another interesting aspect they claimed was that several of the passports he'd found were clipped, i.e had expired and could no longer be used.

Lots of people travel with clipped passports as they contain still valid visas and permit entry to whichever country, with a valid current passport as well.

Another thing they pulled up was news reporters talking about decomposing bodies and how some of the bodies weren't fresh when they were found. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between charred and decomposing, but they seem convinced.

News reporters are experts in death and human decomposition so I guess this one could be right

Yet another 'proof' was the video footage of the missile system with the one missing missile. They claim they shot a transport plane down the previous week, so if they had shot down MH17, there would now be 2 missing missiles. It had started to get a little silly by this point.

Not seen any reports of the transport plane incident, but I'm pretty sure there is more than one similar missile system in existence, possible even in the same area. Or they could have obtained a pack of spare missiles to reload the system. Like buying a printer with spare ink cartridges.

I have to say I'm pretty convinced by these theories though. If only we'd actually gone to the moon the missile could have been fired from there.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:33 am  

cod'ead wrote:

I used to carry a 'clipped' passport along with my current one when visiting the US. The expired passport held my indefinite US visa

See! I was right!

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:16 am  

Saddened! wrote:

Do any of you buy into the conspiracy theories around this one? I watched a video a mate sent me yesterday and there are quite a few 'oh, didn't think of that' moments, although I don't for one moment believe it's made up to frame Russia and get the world to support a sanctions-based war with them. The conspiracy theorists are very good though, I think they need to take on a career in hollywood.

No, and neither should you.

Their first claim of proof of a cover up is the video footage of the passports. The very first video screened in the US (Apart from the smoke plumes) was of a guy showing the camera passports, flicking them open and showing the names. Pristine passports from about 20 passengers. Passports from people confirmed to be on the plane and at different ends according to the seat plan. Yet this guy had found them within 40 minutes of the crash, despite the wreckage being strewn over 8 miles. Another interesting aspect they claimed was that several of the passports he'd found were clipped, i.e had expired and could no longer be used.

If this is their first claim I'd switch off there and then because they're clearly idiots. Firstly, the aircraft does not explode in some all-consuming Hollywood fireball. When the missile hit there would be a detonation near the aircraft, but the aircraft would disintegrate rather than explode, partly due to the damage to the fuselage from the missile shrapnel, and then as the sudden and violent decompression broke it apart. Everything would then simply fall to earth. There was a large explosion when the larger part of the fuselage hit the ground - from the wreckage it appears to be the strongest part of the aircraft where the wings (and engines) are connected to the fuselage, but unless someone's passport was in this fire I'd fully expect the majority to be in perfectly good condition.

Secondly, passports would presumably be in people's hand luggage, coats, etc. It would take a sustained fire to burn through and make any impact on them. If they weren't in the original detonation or the impact explosion, they would also simply fall to earth, unmarked.

Another thing they pulled up was news reporters talking about decomposing bodies and how some of the bodies weren't fresh when they were found. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between charred and decomposing, but they seem convinced.

IIRC it was a couple of days before reporters arrived and were allowed to view bodies. It's mid-summer in Ukraine and it's hot. Go and stick a dead animal in your garden in the heat and see how long before it starts to decompose. If someone spots a blackened body it could easily have been burned rather then decomposed.

Yet another 'proof' was the video footage of the missile system with the one missing missile. They claim they shot a transport plane down the previous week, so if they had shot down MH17, there would now be 2 missing missiles. It had started to get a little silly by this point.

If - and it's a big IF - that was the suspect missile system, you don't suppose they could have possibly, just maybe, reloaded it in the interim, do you??!!! Or perhaps it was a different system?? EDIT - just seen the alleged footage of the guilty missile system being moved out of Ukraine into Russia. If genuine it only reinforces the case against Russia.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:21 am  

Chris28 wrote:

If only we'd actually gone to the moon the missile could have been fired from there.

I share your cynicism on this, however you've not countered the other conspiracy claims, namely that it was done to kill the aids researcher on board, who apparently had proof HIV/AIDS have man made origins. Or that Israel did it to draw attention away from their slaughter of civilians elsewhere.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:33 am  

Saddened! wrote:

I share your cynicism on this, however you've not countered the other conspiracy claims, namely that it was done to kill the aids researcher on board, who apparently had proof HIV/AIDS have man made origins. Or that Israel did it to draw attention away from their slaughter of civilians elsewhere.

The Israeli thing worked a treat I must say

The AIDS being man-made has been speculated about for years, without any proof. I wonder what had suddenly come to light in the last few weeks to make killing him so essential?

Are we sure it wasn't Shergar that brought the plane down?

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:12 am  

As I've said many times before, it was Goebbels who said "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed." Therefore it doesn't matter what ever happens in the world, some nutter or mischief-maker will post a wild conspiracy theory, many other nutters or mischief-makers will then "analyse" it and produce "evidence" in support of it, and so we go on.

Occam would have a field day with this one, though. We have social media messages between the 'rebels' about acquiring the BUK launcher; we have images of it; we have messages between the 'rebels' confirming they thought they had shot down a transport plane, and even messages where they realise it was in fact a civilian airliner.

And finally we have the 'rebels' preventing experts access to the crash site for many days, and no conspiracist has yet to devise a single reasonable explanation as to why else they might do that, other than to give an opportunity to remove/tamper with evidence.

The way these mad theories propagate is to me just a sad commentary on the dumbed down social media masses. It isn't about a willingness to accept official explanations, but a total lack of any critical or logical faculties. Healthy scepticism is one thing, rank stupidity is quite another.

Of course it is both ironic and tragic that the US themselves shot down a civilian airliner (Iran Air Flight 655) by "mistake" i.e. ludicrously believing their warship Vincennes was "under attack", and the Russians infamously shot down Korean 007.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:51 pm  

As usual, when you get interested in a subject you can't let go and it got me wondering, if life is said to be very difficult to sustain above 25000 feet then how come a few assorted fools claim to have climbed Everest (29000 feet) without supplementary air or oxygen ?

According to National Geographic at the summit of Everest there is still 21% of oxygen in the air but the air is less than one third as dense so in simple terms its three times as hard to get enough oxygen into your lungs as at sea level (or under 5000 feet), the higher you go the thinner it gets and very quickly too so that at 30000 feet there is little chance of staying conscious for more than a few seconds, the statement in NG is that if you could instantly transport someone from sea level to the top of Everest they would lose consciousness almost immediately and die shortly afterwards - only with a prolonged and gradual ascent into higher altitudes and especially above 25000 feet is it possible to survive in that atmosphere, "survive" being an operative word because altitude sickness can kick in at around 8000 feet and results in hypoxia, or the brain being starved of oxygen, which in turn often causes hallucinations - many deaths at altitude on Everest have been put down to hallucinations and confusion causing mistakes.

Bottom line is that if you are flying along at 35000 feet reading a book or sipping on your fifth G&T (ice, no lemon) breathing air pressurised at 5000 feet and then suddenly, within a couple of seconds, you are plunged into the abyss of 35000 feet then you will lose consciousness before you realise what is happening and will be dead very quickly afterwards, an autopsy may show that your bodily functions continued for some time during your plunge to earth but you won't have known anything about it.

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:42 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

As usual, when you get interested in a subject you can't let go and it got me wondering, if life is said to be very difficult to sustain above 25000 feet then how come a few assorted fools claim to have climbed Everest (29000 feet) without supplementary air or oxygen ?

According to National Geographic at the summit of Everest there is still 21% of oxygen in the air but the air is less than one third as dense so in simple terms its three times as hard to get enough oxygen into your lungs as at sea level (or under 5000 feet), the higher you go the thinner it gets and very quickly too so that at 30000 feet there is little chance of staying conscious for more than a few seconds, the statement in NG is that if you could instantly transport someone from sea level to the top of Everest they would lose consciousness almost immediately and die shortly afterwards - only with a prolonged and gradual ascent into higher altitudes and especially above 25000 feet is it possible to survive in that atmosphere, "survive" being an operative word because altitude sickness can kick in at around 8000 feet and results in hypoxia, or the brain being starved of oxygen, which in turn often causes hallucinations - many deaths at altitude on Everest have been put down to hallucinations and confusion causing mistakes.

Bottom line is that if you are flying along at 35000 feet reading a book or sipping on your fifth G&T (ice, no lemon) breathing air pressurised at 5000 feet and then suddenly, within a couple of seconds, you are plunged into the abyss of 35000 feet then you will lose consciousness before you realise what is happening and will be dead very quickly afterwards, an autopsy may show that your bodily functions continued for some time during your plunge to earth but you won't have known anything about it.

But can you prove that? I bet there will have been someone on board filming at the time of said alleged de-pressurisation. Would that stop the phone working also? And would the black box recorders pick up the screams?

Re: Malaysia Airlines place vanishes. : Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:57 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

But can you prove that? I bet there will have been someone on board filming at the time of said alleged de-pressurisation. Would that stop the phone working also? And would the black box recorders pick up the screams?

You wouldn't see anything on the film, thats something else I learned, the pressurised air inside the cabin holds a lot more moisture that the not-very-airlike air outside, mix the two suddenly and you create dense fog, so thats what you get inside the cabin, not good for filming in then you die so you aren't holding the phone, or caring very much about filming it anymore.