Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:16 pm  

Kosh wrote:

I'd be highly pi$$ed off, yes. I'd like to think I wouldn't start killing random civilians though.

Wouldn't we all. But fast forward 60 years; you've still had no satisfaction through formal methods. The courts have made judgements – but these have been ignored. Entire nations actually put all the blame on you.

And then, to cap it all, you're stuck in prison – and when you actually respond, you're still being blamed.

And that's without pointing out that those imprisoning you have killed vastly more – and I mean "vastly" – than you have. Including children and other innocent civilians, numbered in the thousands – and it's still you that's to blame.

Really, the propaganda has worked well, hasn't it?

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:20 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

<a load of apologist BS>

Strange, isn't it, that when moderates are humiliated, people will turn to more radical leaders?

Who'd a thunk that, eh?

You could be mistaken for imagining that, say, the lessons of Iran had been learned. No?

But well done for continuing to fall for the Israeli propaganda machine. Still, at least those Israelis are mostly white and not a bunch of sand n*gger rag heads, eh?

The Zionist terrorists never poisoned wells, shot people in the back of the head, drove people from their homes etc etc. And if they did, in your book that's all hunky dory.

Because that's what you're saying is acceptable. Well done.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:42 pm  

Mintball wrote:

I assume that, if someone waltzed into your home, threw you out of it and said that, on the basis of some ancient fairy tale, it was no longer yours, you'd be entirely happy: yes?

Is it also safe to assume that, if you were blockaded into your town, with restrictions not simply on movement, but on being able to get basic goods, you'd simply roll over and let yourself be f*cked: yes?

If you answer 'no' to one or both of these question, why do you expect Palestinians to behave differently than you'd behave?

That makes it ok for them to launch indiscriminately at civilian populations. Is a Jewish child any more likely to understand the history of the area than an Arab child. Your post seemed to only be concerned about Arab children, when most people are concerned about innocents on both sides. Whether you like it or not, Israel is going nowhere and until both sides can sit down and talk instead of lobbing rockets at each other, deaths of those who are not in control will happen. What do you think would happen if the Palestinians got hold of any serious weaponry such as a dirty bomb, or worse a nuke, I doubt they would use it as a bargaining chip, they would use it without hesitation. Israel has a right to exist, which certain factions in the region will not accept and they also have a right to defend themselves against attacks, it just happens that they have a more sophisticated arsenal and better trained military personnel which makes losses on the Palastinian side more likely.

Most outsiders want a two state solution in the region, but I would hazard a guess that if by some miracle this was achieved the radicals on the Arab side would still carry on attacking Israel until they wiped everyone out.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:55 pm  

As long as both side indoctrinate their children in the mistakes of the past, the future will be full of the blood of both sides

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:24 am  

Mintball wrote:

Wouldn't we all. But fast forward 60 years; you've still had no satisfaction through formal methods. The courts have made judgements – but these have been ignored. Entire nations actually put all the blame on you.

And then, to cap it all, you're stuck in prison – and when you actually respond, you're still being blamed.

And that's without pointing out that those imprisoning you have killed vastly more – and I mean "vastly" – than you have. Including children and other innocent civilians, numbered in the thousands – and it's still you that's to blame.

Really, the propaganda has worked well, hasn't it?

You think that the condemnation of taking innocent civilian lives is all down to propaganda? Really? Or that lives can be measured in some king of balance and it's OK to kill innocent people as long as the other side have killed more? You're better than that, surely?

Killing civilians is wrong. I don't care how righteous the cause is - and there can be little argument that Palestinians have a righteous cause - once you start targeting civilians you've crossed the line.

What I find - let's say disappointing to be polite - is people who will happily condemn attacks on civilians by one side but ignore the same tactics when used by another. Or, say, condemn civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan but say nothing when Hamas kill Israeli civilians.

If killing civilians is wrong then it's wrong at all times and in all places. Simple.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:13 pm  

What the apologists like to ignore/forget.

What the apologists like to ignore/forget.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:16 pm  

Kosh wrote:

You think that the condemnation of taking innocent civilian lives is all down to propaganda? Really? Or that lives can be measured in some king of balance and it's OK to kill innocent people as long as the other side have killed more? You're better than that, surely?

Killing civilians is wrong. I don't care how righteous the cause is - and there can be little argument that Palestinians have a righteous cause - once you start targeting civilians you've crossed the line.

What I find - let's say disappointing to be polite - is people who will happily condemn attacks on civilians by one side but ignore the same tactics when used by another. Or, say, condemn civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan but say nothing when Hamas kill Israeli civilians.

If killing civilians is wrong then it's wrong at all times and in all places. Simple.

Eloquently put. I was beginning to think there was something wrong with me being concerned about killings on both sides, rather than thinking killing innocents is OK so long as the end result was something I agreed with.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:18 pm  

rover49 wrote:

That makes it ok for them to launch indiscriminately at civilian populations...

Read the link from the Boston Globe I've just posted to see what the Israeli state has been doing ever since the last onslaught on [a]a blockaded population[/a].

Because if you think it hasn't been doing anything, you're very, very wrong.

rover49 wrote:

... Is a Jewish child any more likely to understand the history of the area than an Arab child. Your post seemed to only be concerned about Arab children, when most people are concerned about innocents on both sides...

Well, looking at the numbers of those killed, there's one hell of a lot more Palestinian children have been killed. And then people try to play moral equivalence.

'Dirty weapons'? Like the phosphorus the Israelis have used on Gaza?

At least the sonic booms that caused miscarriages weren't 'dirty', eh?

This was not defence.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:20 pm  

Kosh wrote:

You think that the condemnation of taking innocent civilian lives is all down to propaganda? Really? Or that lives can be measured in some king of balance and it's OK to kill innocent people as long as the other side have killed more? You're better than that, surely?

Killing civilians is wrong. I don't care how righteous the cause is - and there can be little argument that Palestinians have a righteous cause - once you start targeting civilians you've crossed the line.

What I find - let's say disappointing to be polite - is people who will happily condemn attacks on civilians by one side but ignore the same tactics when used by another. Or, say, condemn civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan but say nothing when Hamas kill Israeli civilians.

If killing civilians is wrong then it's wrong at all times and in all places. Simple.

No. I don't. But I think it's massively stupid to actually take account of the situation that the Palestinians are in, in reality, and then wonder that some of them don't lash out and wring hands when they do.

What do you expect? Politicians have failed them; the West ignores them and stops even mild criticism at the UN being passed. So politics clearly isn't much of a route.

They're effectively in a prison – and being shot at, while inside that prison.

Read the Boston Glove article – and then come back and explain what you think they should do against a state that is ideologically committed to ethnic cleansing.

Zionism is a far-right, nationalist ideology. Don't forget that a former member on these forums was not only a BNP supporter but a self-declared 'Christian-Zionist'. That should tell you a lot.

And as Desmond Tutu has said, what the Israeli state is enforcing is a form of apartheid. It wasn't acceptable in South Africa and it's no more acceptable in the Middle East.

Before the end of apartheid, were you condemning the ANC for its military campaign (and it was a damn sight more organised than what anyone in the Gaza is managing)?

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:23 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Read the link from the Boston Globe I've just posted to see what the Israeli state has been doing ever since the last onslaught on [a]a blockaded population[/a].

Because if you think it hasn't been doing anything, you're very, very wrong.

Well, looking at the numbers of those killed, there's one hell of a lot more Palestinian children have been killed. And then people try to play moral equivalence.

'Dirty weapons'? Like the phosphorus the Israelis have used on Gaza?

At least the sonic booms that caused miscarriages weren't 'dirty', eh?

This was not defence.

Sometimes defending yourself means you need to go on the offensive, nature of conflict I'm afraid.

I agree that the numbers are much larger on the Palestinian side, but you seem to have no sympathy for dead Israeli civilians, judging by your posts it's all about Palaetinians. Maybe I am wrong, but a blood covered child or civilian adult is the same to me no matter what god they pray to.