Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:36 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Do we not trade with the likes of China on WTO terms? Who has said anything about zero tariffs?

Yes we do. So we just apply the same tariffs as we do on Chinese imports to European ones. Simple! Until you realise what that actually means!

Sal Paradise wrote:

Nobody is saying punish the EU - surely the view was trade talks would undertaken in the spirit of finding a workable solution - can you genuinely say the EU has tried to be constructive? .

Yes, anyone who isn't fed by a drip of right wing propaganda knows they have. There are a bunch on off the shelf solutions, Norway, Switzerland, even Canada etc, so we've seen what sort of things we can achieve given what the EU countries will accept. They've actually offered movement in quite a few areas that would be better than these.

But the British continue to demand things which simply can't be offered. That's not a failing to be constructive, it's just fact as to what the community's red lines are and what will be vetoed by any particular country. And the interests of the Republic of Ireland are given an outsize importance given how things will impact them.

But yes, obviously they hold the whip hand in these negotiations so any deal we get isn't exactly going to be particularly favourable given the relative power dynamics. Like us they are looking after their own interests first. But this has been made clear all along and shouldn't come as some surprise to you.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:37 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

So why are the EU looking to replace Barnier if he is doing such a great job!!

I mean the fact you actually believe this story shows how much false news you have been consuming. Dear oh dear.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:36 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I mean the fact you actually believe this story shows how much false news you have been consuming. Dear oh dear.

Let's see who is right shall we?

Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:44 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Yes we do. So we just apply the same tariffs as we do on Chinese imports to European ones. Simple! Until you realise what that actually means!

Yes, anyone who isn't fed by a drip of right wing propaganda knows they have. There are a bunch on off the shelf solutions, Norway, Switzerland, even Canada etc, so we've seen what sort of things we can achieve given what the EU countries will accept. They've actually offered movement in quite a few areas that would be better than these.

But the British continue to demand things which simply can't be offered. That's not a failing to be constructive, it's just fact as to what the community's red lines are and what will be vetoed by any particular country. And the interests of the Republic of Ireland are given an outsize importance given how things will impact them.

But yes, obviously they hold the whip hand in these negotiations so any deal we get isn't exactly going to be particularly favourable given the relative power dynamics. Like us they are looking after their own interests first. But this has been made clear all along and shouldn't come as some surprise to you.

On radio 4 they had the German guy who acts as a go between and he stated that none of these deals Norway, Canada etc. can be adapted for the UK due to our proximity to the EU and our 40 years of involvement - so it would have to be a bespoke arrangement. So these off the shelf deals never existed in reality.

As you said both parties are trying to look out for themselves and it should come as no surprise to you that we haven't simply rolled over and let the EU tell us how its going to be. The EU cannot expect us to be a Norway - worse as they have quotas in their waters which the EU claim to be far too complicated to administer in our waters. They expect us to adhere to the ECJ, they want a say in state aid - when Germany just does what it wants when it comes to bailing out failing industries e.g. Lufthansa - so it isn't just the UK that is asking for things that simply can't be offered?

Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:47 pm  

Just on state aid, it's a bit tiresome but Tories really do need to learn the difference between their governments ideologically refusing to help uk industries with it being disallowed under EU state aid rules. Another vast bundle of misinformation lies behind some of the stuff they come out with in this area when it's in reality been their own government stiffing them all along.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:39 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Just on state aid, it's a bit tiresome but Tories really do need to learn the difference between their governments ideologically refusing to help uk industries with it being disallowed under EU state aid rules. Another vast bundle of misinformation lies behind some of the stuff they come out with in this area when it's in reality been their own government stiffing them all along.

So are you saying the Lufthansa bail out was within EU state aid rules?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:17 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote: So are you saying the Lufthansa bail out was within EU state aid rules? Apparently. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_20_1179

Sal Paradise wrote: So are you saying the Lufthansa bail out was within EU state aid rules? Apparently. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_20_1179

[Mild Rover]

Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:26 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Let's see who is right shall we?

The thing is, even if they decided a new voice might help, they’d still need to fundamentally change their position. Barnier isn’t just making it up - he’s got clear guidance on his remit.

The problem is that the U.K. wants things that undermine the principles that hold the EU together. Their concerns about that are just as pressing as brexiteer concerns about complete, unequivocal, unshared sovereignty for the U.K.

So there’s no landing zone for a meaningful deal, and we need to prepare for the consequences of that. And the opportunities, as well - which will be quicker and easier, at least.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:57 pm  

Mild Rover wrote: Apparently. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_20_1179 Quite. There isn't some great conspiracy out there - the UK's right wing governments don't believe in central support of business and more than once have tried to conflate that ideological position with "EU rules" when it has been nothing of the sort. They've pulled the same lying trick on a massive number of things, from the trivial (straight bananas) on up.

Mild Rover wrote: Apparently. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_20_1179 Quite. There isn't some great conspiracy out there - the UK's right wing governments don't believe in central support of business and more than once have tried to conflate that ideological position with "EU rules" when it has been nothing of the sort. They've pulled the same lying trick on a massive number of things, from the trivial (straight bananas) on up.

Re: Education, education, education and war : Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:58 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

The thing is, even if they decided a new voice might help, they’d still need to fundamentally change their position. Barnier isn’t just making it up - he’s got clear guidance on his remit.

The problem is that the U.K. wants things that undermine the principles that hold the EU together. Their concerns about that are just as pressing as brexiteer concerns about complete, unequivocal, unshared sovereignty for the U.K.

So there’s no landing zone for a meaningful deal, and we need to prepare for the consequences of that. And the opportunities, as well - which will be quicker and easier, at least.

Absolutely agree with the above - we were always heading for no deal - there is no other logical outcome - including some restrictions in Eire otherwise its Hotel California.