Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:02 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

Hardly heartless is it asking people to learn a new skill? A skill which will benefit that person for the rest of their lives.

You're too dumb to argue with anymore

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:11 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

I'm not one to defend Ajw71 but I can't see where he's said that.

Simple budgeting should be part of an all round education and is something that administrations of both hues have neglected.

Ajw71 wrote:

Nearly impossible? - more sensationalist rubbish. Any excuse just so benefit claimants cannot take some personal responsibility! Don't you want them to make a better life for themselves, don't you want them to improve their life chances?


"many claimants cannot budget" - Cod'ed.


Negative stereotyping hey.

Unless I'm reading it wrong and he hasn't made himself clear, he is suggesting that coddy is making excuses for the lower paid and it was Ajw who used the term benefit claimants (as above) and using the term them (benefit claimants again?)

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:13 pm  

Hull White Star wrote:

Unless I'm reading it wrong and he hasn't made himself clear, he is suggesting that coddy is making excuses for the lower paid and it was Ajw who used the term benefit claimants (as above) and using the term them (benefit claimants again?)

What on earth are you on about?!

If you are going to try and twist my words at least make a half decent attempt at it.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:22 pm  

We shouldn't necessarily pick on the likes of Ajw71 for I have noticed these past couple of years that those of the 20 to 35 (ish) generation are broadly more supportive of the benefits cuts, I don't know if this will convert to Tory votes in 2015 but I have a few loose theories for the apparent lack of sympathy and empathy for the unemployed, disabled and benefit dependent low waged...

1. In that age group there is an opposition to the principle of paying tax, its of no apparent benefit to a young fit, healthy employee, eventual retirement is not on the agenda at all, the NHS is somewhere you go to when you've drunk too much on a Saturday night, your doctor is somewhere you go for birth control, there is no thought to what else goes into running a National Health Service, there is no knowledge of how things used to be for their grandparents before the NHS.

2. They have already been told that the NIS that is deducted at source every week/month is not for their benefit, its not for their pension and they won't have a pension when they retire, its to pay for their elder generation's pension and for a health service that sick, old people use - I'd feel resentful for that too.

3. Cynicism only comes with age and life experience, possibly they just don't understand that a member of government could actually be in the job for their own ideology and own financial benefit, and that when a member of government says that something is so and mentions in passing some random statistics, then maybe they just don't immediately think "prove it" but in stead think that it must be so and how lucky are we that they are doing something about it.

4. That undeveloped cynicism doesn't help them question the printed media either, there is still a big belief in the population at large that if a newspaper prints something then it must be true and that all newspapers are totally independent of government interference or spoon-feeding.

5. They have not yet lived through enough governments to understand that party politics are a destructive and wasteful past-time, that supporting a party regardless of its philosophy is not what government should be about and that the strong should, even in some small way, protect the weak in any civilisation - that it is as wrong to target the weak and poor as "shirkers" and in some way as leaches of your personal taxation as it would be to say the same thing about (for instance) black people (and that used to happen and was used by political parties too).


In short, when young you believe that you are far more invincible than at any other time of your life, you don't believe that your parents were ever young or that they have ever held any other viewpoint than the one they have now, if they tell you that they now have the experience to judge better you dismiss that as condescending - next time you have an opportunity to speak to a 20 or 30-something, just ask them what they think of the government benefit reforms, or of immigration, or the EU and see if you get a view more aligned with Cameron than not.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:25 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

What on earth are you on about?!

If you are going to try and twist my words at least make a half decent attempt at it.

The only one twisting something is the Tories, the knife into the backs of low paid workers and benefit claimants.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:41 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

I'm not one to defend Ajw71 but I can't see where he's said that.

Simple budgeting should be part of an all round education and is something that administrations of both hues have neglected.

And if your (already low) wages are going down long term and the cost of living is perpetually rising, it's next to near impossible – not least when a spanner is thrown into the works like a blown boiler, for instance.

You cannot budget for any and all eventualities when you've no room to move beyond roof over head, basic bills and food on the table.

We're not seeing a rise in food banks because nobody using them can budget. The same goes for Save the Children having to provide help in the UK. UNISON is seeing an increasing number of members (that's working people) needing help with school uniforms and winter fuel grants, plus debt counselling. I interviewed one such counsellor earlier this year – this isn't people spending way over their 'budgets' – it's people getting into a mess because their wages are too low for a very basic standard of living.

That's the reality of life in the UK in 2013 – and a reality that individuals such as Ajw71 either do not realise exists or prefer to pretend does not exist.

And 'budgeting' is frankly just a way of palming the ultimate responsibility for that toxic mix of rising cost of living and falling incomes onto those who are most on the receiving end of it.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:08 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

Simple budgeting should be part of an all round education and is something that administrations of both hues have neglected.

Of course it should but as you say, it has been ignored for decades.

How would you go about teaching budgeting to a recently-released smackhead?

We've been teaching maths and English for centuries, there is still a sizeable number of the population who struggle with either or both

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:55 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Of course it should but as you say, it has been ignored for decades.

How would you go about teaching budgeting to a recently-released smackhead?

The same way we can teach that smackhead to stay off the drugs and the same way we can plough resources into having them report to an office every other week.

cod'ead wrote:

We've been teaching maths and English for centuries, there is still a sizeable number of the population who struggle with either or both

Running a budget is way more than simple maths as you well know, there has to be a starting point though, we shouldn't have to have a system that allows some people to have their backsides wiped because that can't be bothered to learn how.

That's not to say I agree with the way this lot are doing it but the principle is sound enough.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:14 pm  

...and then mix in the ethic that has been taught since the 1980s that you CAN have it all and you CAN have it now, even if your earnings mean you'll be paying for it for an awful long time.

Budgeting is far more than working out what your rent, rates, utilities and food bills are, its also, as Mintball has pointed out, setting aside contingencies and paying off the debt that you accumulated ten years ago because someone said you could and you couldn't see any reason why you shouldn't have some of those things too as long as the credit card minimum repayment was so low.

I leave it all to the wife these days, being brought up in a coal miners family means she knows all about living on tight margins and varying earnings.



Which accidentally brings us full circle again - how the fook does anyone learn even the basics of budgeting when you don't know how many hours you'll be working next week ?

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:41 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

The same way we can teach that smackhead to stay off the drugs and the same way we can plough resources into having them report to an office every other week.

Running a budget is way more than simple maths as you well know, there has to be a starting point though, we shouldn't have to have a system that allows some people to have their backsides wiped because that can't be bothered to learn how.

That's not to say I agree with the way this lot are doing it but the principle is sound enough.

"Backsides wiped"?

Did you glean that little snippet from the Dally Wail?

When someone is on the bones of their arse, even when getting various benefits paid on a fortnightly basis, suddenly find they will now be paid monthly, in arrears. Then also suddenly find that after they've gone a fortnight with NO MONEY coming in, that the rent that used to be paid directly to the landlord, is now sitting in their personal account, who do you think they will look after first? My guess would be the landlord would be behind the loansharks and dealers.

The CAB budget has been slashed, along with many other support groups. Charities working with the underprivileged are at bursting point. The proposed privatisation of the Probation Service (another that has suffered huge staff cuts), will do nothing to improve reintegration of ofenders or reduce recidivism. Who will provide the necessary budgeting skills?