Re: Boris Johnson : Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:16 am  

AXE2GRIND wrote: Here's a link for anyone with 10 minutes to spare. I left the UK a decade ago and Brexit will have little impact on my now as I have just severed the last of my fiscal ties, but I'd be keen to hear the arguments against any of the issues stated in this piece. As I say, it's about a 10 minute read and it deals with the backstory, the evolution of the will to leave, the campaigns, the result and then the sudden realisation that maybe you weren't given all of the facts and reasons until it was too late. It also explains why May was jettisoned and why the glove puppet Boris was selected. Sal Pareadise. I am particularly looking forward to your arguments on each points, but try and steer clear of your undoubted hatred of Trade Unions and concentrate on the real reason behind Brexit, Tax Avoidance https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Remainers-so-convinced-that-staying-in-the-European-Union-is-what-is-best-for-the-UK/answer/Barry-McGuinness-1?ch=1&share=a9239dc8&srid=AbYfT&fbclid=IwAR1vbZ3ylLF28V2QM_3UY_khe04M7XmJFORS5ms7GPc7tlAoWE46VGyR-Cg That's a fairly decent piece, even if its angle is (obviously) pro-remain. however, it lost my attention when it blamed the leave vote on austerity and because the unpopular (although recently re-elected) David Cameron backed remain. It ignores many key points: - People have seen their communities change enormously and rapidly with the influx of migrants, both EU and non-EU, and it hasn't always been good (you should check out central Leigh for a good example of acute problems with EU migrants). If you're a Europhile you probably think the locals are all racist and should just put up with it. I say why should communities have this change forced upon them? - Population growth. Net migration HAS to come down. We simply cannot absorb everyone wanting to come here (which incidentally is probably in the tens of millions). Furthermore, migrants tend to have far higher birth rates than Brits and our elderly population is growing year on year. Unless we build new towns at an impossible rate, our towns and cities will be gridlocked within a few decades and unless we spend many billions more than planned, public services will collapse. - However you angle it, we are governed by Brussels. I don't care if some of the lower tiers are elected and the upper tiers are kind of nominated in a questionable process - those at the top are too distant and frankly unnecessary. How many layers of government does anyone think we need? - The ultimate EU goal. From those who first wrote of a united Europe to the Ventotene Manifesto to Jean Monnet and his 'Federation of Europe' and others who wrote post-WW2 of a super European state or United States of Europe - the goal is gradual erosion of the nation-state and absolute centralised power in Brussels. I want nothing of that ideology. The Eurozone, Schengen, centralised power base, even an EU anthem...any idea where this is going? No EU army yet, but Verhofstadt and von der Leyen - amongst others - have spoken openly of their desire for an EU armed force. If the UK government is terrible they get voted out every few years. If the heads of the EU are terrible they...erm, anyone know? - Worker's Rights. A total red herring. The UK has led the way in many worker's rights (granted, trade unions played a huge part). For example (stolen from various sources): UK statutory paid holiday entitlement 28 days; EU 20 days. UK National Minimum Wage Act 1998 – there is no EU minimum wage law (although individual countries have their own laws). Maternity leave – UK: up to 52 weeks, EU: 14 weeks. “Protection against sex, race and disability discrimination" in the UK pre-dates EU law. Women’s rights: the Equal Pay Act, Abortion Act and Divorce Reform Act: all passed before the UK even joined the EU. Sex Discrimination Act, Domestic Violence Act, Employment Protection Act, Race Relations Act – no EU involvement. The EU has no NHS-style healthcare requirement. Of course many countries offer some similar systems but most people pay top-up private insurance. In France, Germany and Ireland (and possibly others) you pay upfront to see your GP, and in other countries you pay for medical care upfront and get only partially reimbursed later. - In fact the vast majority of EU laws are being written directly into UK law. This entire argument is moot. And let's not forget the disastrous concept of the Eurozone has seen unemployment rocket - on average you’re twice as likely to be out of work in the Eurozone. Youth unemployment has been as high as 50% at times and is still devastating communities across Europe - part of the reason we see so many seeking to come to the UK. I've always admitted we will be worse off upon leaving the EU - at first. To what degree depends on the agreements reached. However - life goes on, business will always find a way and while remainers might scoff, there are indeed opportunities outside the EU once out. Meanwhile of course we'll still deal with the EU as our closest trading partner both geographically and economically. That said, UK-EU imports and exports have been falling for decades in favour of emerging markets, and that will only continue.

AXE2GRIND wrote: Here's a link for anyone with 10 minutes to spare. I left the UK a decade ago and Brexit will have little impact on my now as I have just severed the last of my fiscal ties, but I'd be keen to hear the arguments against any of the issues stated in this piece. As I say, it's about a 10 minute read and it deals with the backstory, the evolution of the will to leave, the campaigns, the result and then the sudden realisation that maybe you weren't given all of the facts and reasons until it was too late. It also explains why May was jettisoned and why the glove puppet Boris was selected. Sal Pareadise. I am particularly looking forward to your arguments on each points, but try and steer clear of your undoubted hatred of Trade Unions and concentrate on the real reason behind Brexit, Tax Avoidance https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Remainers-so-convinced-that-staying-in-the-European-Union-is-what-is-best-for-the-UK/answer/Barry-McGuinness-1?ch=1&share=a9239dc8&srid=AbYfT&fbclid=IwAR1vbZ3ylLF28V2QM_3UY_khe04M7XmJFORS5ms7GPc7tlAoWE46VGyR-Cg That's a fairly decent piece, even if its angle is (obviously) pro-remain. however, it lost my attention when it blamed the leave vote on austerity and because the unpopular (although recently re-elected) David Cameron backed remain. It ignores many key points: - People have seen their communities change enormously and rapidly with the influx of migrants, both EU and non-EU, and it hasn't always been good (you should check out central Leigh for a good example of acute problems with EU migrants). If you're a Europhile you probably think the locals are all racist and should just put up with it. I say why should communities have this change forced upon them? - Population growth. Net migration HAS to come down. We simply cannot absorb everyone wanting to come here (which incidentally is probably in the tens of millions). Furthermore, migrants tend to have far higher birth rates than Brits and our elderly population is growing year on year. Unless we build new towns at an impossible rate, our towns and cities will be gridlocked within a few decades and unless we spend many billions more than planned, public services will collapse. - However you angle it, we are governed by Brussels. I don't care if some of the lower tiers are elected and the upper tiers are kind of nominated in a questionable process - those at the top are too distant and frankly unnecessary. How many layers of government does anyone think we need? - The ultimate EU goal. From those who first wrote of a united Europe to the Ventotene Manifesto to Jean Monnet and his 'Federation of Europe' and others who wrote post-WW2 of a super European state or United States of Europe - the goal is gradual erosion of the nation-state and absolute centralised power in Brussels. I want nothing of that ideology. The Eurozone, Schengen, centralised power base, even an EU anthem...any idea where this is going? No EU army yet, but Verhofstadt and von der Leyen - amongst others - have spoken openly of their desire for an EU armed force. If the UK government is terrible they get voted out every few years. If the heads of the EU are terrible they...erm, anyone know? - Worker's Rights. A total red herring. The UK has led the way in many worker's rights (granted, trade unions played a huge part). For example (stolen from various sources): UK statutory paid holiday entitlement 28 days; EU 20 days. UK National Minimum Wage Act 1998 – there is no EU minimum wage law (although individual countries have their own laws). Maternity leave – UK: up to 52 weeks, EU: 14 weeks. “Protection against sex, race and disability discrimination" in the UK pre-dates EU law. Women’s rights: the Equal Pay Act, Abortion Act and Divorce Reform Act: all passed before the UK even joined the EU. Sex Discrimination Act, Domestic Violence Act, Employment Protection Act, Race Relations Act – no EU involvement. The EU has no NHS-style healthcare requirement. Of course many countries offer some similar systems but most people pay top-up private insurance. In France, Germany and Ireland (and possibly others) you pay upfront to see your GP, and in other countries you pay for medical care upfront and get only partially reimbursed later. - In fact the vast majority of EU laws are being written directly into UK law. This entire argument is moot. And let's not forget the disastrous concept of the Eurozone has seen unemployment rocket - on average you’re twice as likely to be out of work in the Eurozone. Youth unemployment has been as high as 50% at times and is still devastating communities across Europe - part of the reason we see so many seeking to come to the UK. I've always admitted we will be worse off upon leaving the EU - at first. To what degree depends on the agreements reached. However - life goes on, business will always find a way and while remainers might scoff, there are indeed opportunities outside the EU once out. Meanwhile of course we'll still deal with the EU as our closest trading partner both geographically and economically. That said, UK-EU imports and exports have been falling for decades in favour of emerging markets, and that will only continue.

Re: Boris Johnson : Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:22 pm  

As usual, Cronus, a well put argument and it was indeed an interesting 10 minute read on the link.

Where we fundamentally differ in our views, is the future on the outside of the EU.
Acknowledging that there will be some pain and loss of GDP (in the short term) our collective prosperity, following the initial backward step is far from certain and my personal opinion, still remains that without the EU, we will, as a single nation, be far, far weaker in the world.

We have little choice other than to cosy up to the USA and we will effectively become their "pet", having to jump when they shout and carry out even more of their dirty work.

We've all seen the way in which Trump operates and without any backing from the stronger partners in the EU, we become vulnerable and of course, the withdrawal agreement is only the first small hurdle in our departure.

The much coveted free trade deal would take heaps of pressure off our trading relationship and help the Irish situation immensely but, there is no guarantee of this happening and with Boris in charge, just like Trump, he is likely to burn bridges, rather than mend them.

Lets be clear, just like many politicians, Johnson, is bothered only about Johnson and he would sell his granny if there was some personal benefit for him.
Not a leader that I wish to follow (mind you, neither is Corbyn).

Re: Boris Johnson : Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:31 pm  

The key thing about migration, at a purely dispassionate level, is that we get a supply of well educated, typically motivated workers who fill our demographic and skills gaps. Their home countries have educated them but we get the economic benefit. And yes they have kids at a higher rate, filling the hole created by our own low birth rate. Who do people think are going to work in the care homes and hospitals of the future to cater for our otherwise ageing population?

Now of course these changes are hard for society to digest but EU migrants are such a huge net economic positive for our country that we need to be wary of what will fill that gap when they are gone.

Re: Boris Johnson : Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:35 pm  

Cronus wrote:

- Worker's Rights. A total red herring. The UK has led the way in many worker's rights (granted, trade unions played a huge part). For example (stolen from various sources):
UK statutory paid holiday entitlement 28 days; EU 20 days.
UK National Minimum Wage Act 1998 – there is no EU minimum wage law (although individual countries have their own laws).
Maternity leave – UK: up to 52 weeks, EU: 14 weeks.
“Protection against sex, race and disability discrimination" in the UK pre-dates EU law.
Women’s rights: the Equal Pay Act, Abortion Act and Divorce Reform Act: all passed before the UK even joined the EU.
Sex Discrimination Act, Domestic Violence Act, Employment Protection Act, Race Relations Act – no EU involvement.
The EU has no NHS-style healthcare requirement. Of course many countries offer some similar systems but most people pay top-up private insurance.
In France, Germany and Ireland (and possibly others) you pay upfront to see your GP, and in other countries you pay for medical care upfront and get only partially reimbursed later.
- In fact the vast majority of EU laws are being written directly into UK law. This entire argument is moot.

Genuine question. how many of these hard won rights did the Tories initially oppose?

Re: Boris Johnson : Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:04 am  

Cronus wrote:

That's a fairly decent piece,

As was your response. Isn't it refreshing to have a discussion without the usual "gubbin's that often accompanies it"

In terms of Workers rights and the UK v EU. The issue isn't the rights that workers enjoy now, but more about the rights that they will enjoy in the future. Trade Unions do not carry the same gravitas as they used to and those at the top of the food chain do desire us to adopt an American view on such matters, meaning that once an environment of unemployment is created (or a risk of unemployment) workers are more amenable to bending to the will of their bosses. Strike action, unless in a key area such as health, fire, police or underground is fairly rare now, whilst 0 hours contracts are rife.
In terms of Healthcare, the UK may well need to look at charging for certain services, especially to foreign nationals, but for UK citizens, it should be an absolute free service. The fact that the Right Wing are licking their lips at the cash to be made by flogging access to this goldmine should be setting of alarm bells.
In terms of Immigration, the article admits that numbers were underestimated in regards to eastern Europeans, but nearly 1,000,000 poles have since returned home since the vote, so whilst poor areas (you mention Leigh, Ealing Broadway was full of polish a decade ago) have seen an influx, it is the impact on an already stretched infrastructure dealing with benefit claimants that has seen tipping point, meaning there was an issue with Leigh before Ivan and his mates moved in, but it was easier for Boris et al to blame the immigrants, rather than the problems created by the Tories bailing out the banks and targeting the poor to pay for it.

Re: Boris Johnson : Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:17 am  

AXE2GRIND wrote: Here's a link for anyone with 10 minutes to spare. I left the UK a decade ago and Brexit will have little impact on my now as I have just severed the last of my fiscal ties, but I'd be keen to hear the arguments against any of the issues stated in this piece. As I say, it's about a 10 minute read and it deals with the backstory, the evolution of the will to leave, the campaigns, the result and then the sudden realisation that maybe you weren't given all of the facts and reasons until it was too late. It also explains why May was jettisoned and why the glove puppet Boris was selected. Sal Pareadise. I am particularly looking forward to your arguments on each points, but try and steer clear of your undoubted hatred of Trade Unions and concentrate on the real reason behind Brexit, Tax Avoidance https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Remainers-so-convinced-that-staying-in-the-European-Union-is-what-is-best-for-the-UK/answer/Barry-McGuinness-1?ch=1&share=a9239dc8&srid=AbYfT&fbclid=IwAR1vbZ3ylLF28V2QM_3UY_khe04M7XmJFORS5ms7GPc7tlAoWE46VGyR-Cg It is an interesting article - written by someone with a strong desire to remain in the EU and as such its bias needs to be considered. The idea that anyone country has a veto simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny - Cameron vetoed the Treaty, they simply ignored him and went ahead. The Poles voted in a Law and Justice party to get rid of a corrupt blocking legal system. What happen the EU simply said if you carry out the policies you were voted in on we will stop your money and we will curtail your voting rights. Hungary didn't want a load of Syrian refugees - EU simply said take them or we will invoke Article 7 and take away your rights. Italy's 5 star was castigated for wanting to introduce a basic living wage - and Corbyn et al are so supportive of EU labour rights - it would be funny if it weren't so serious. Austria were warned in they vote in a government the EU didn't like it would face EU censure. The less said about the way the EU has treated Greece the better. The idea that we can get rid of the likes of Junker and Tusk is delusional - we can't. These third rate politicians could run a bbq. Junker was a disaster in a microscopic country yet here he is running the costliest ineffective organisations on the planet - when he is not vexed that is. The Poles don't want Tusk anywhere near their political scene again - but with his huge EU pension he will not have a need thankfully. At citizens we have no influence on the top table of the EU. Workers rights issue has been exposed on here for the fiction they are - we have far better rights than the EU norm. As has the environmental - these are just feeble Labour attempts to block an exit. The elderly have been attacked for depriving the young of their future - the elderly voted for a trading bloc, what they didn't vote for was an EU super state where they dictated the laws - no wonder they voted out it wasn't what was promised. Leaving the EU will be tough but it will not be the calamity that many suggest. Business is agile it has to be to survive and it will find a way to prosper outside of the EU

AXE2GRIND wrote: Here's a link for anyone with 10 minutes to spare. I left the UK a decade ago and Brexit will have little impact on my now as I have just severed the last of my fiscal ties, but I'd be keen to hear the arguments against any of the issues stated in this piece. As I say, it's about a 10 minute read and it deals with the backstory, the evolution of the will to leave, the campaigns, the result and then the sudden realisation that maybe you weren't given all of the facts and reasons until it was too late. It also explains why May was jettisoned and why the glove puppet Boris was selected. Sal Pareadise. I am particularly looking forward to your arguments on each points, but try and steer clear of your undoubted hatred of Trade Unions and concentrate on the real reason behind Brexit, Tax Avoidance https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Remainers-so-convinced-that-staying-in-the-European-Union-is-what-is-best-for-the-UK/answer/Barry-McGuinness-1?ch=1&share=a9239dc8&srid=AbYfT&fbclid=IwAR1vbZ3ylLF28V2QM_3UY_khe04M7XmJFORS5ms7GPc7tlAoWE46VGyR-Cg It is an interesting article - written by someone with a strong desire to remain in the EU and as such its bias needs to be considered. The idea that anyone country has a veto simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny - Cameron vetoed the Treaty, they simply ignored him and went ahead. The Poles voted in a Law and Justice party to get rid of a corrupt blocking legal system. What happen the EU simply said if you carry out the policies you were voted in on we will stop your money and we will curtail your voting rights. Hungary didn't want a load of Syrian refugees - EU simply said take them or we will invoke Article 7 and take away your rights. Italy's 5 star was castigated for wanting to introduce a basic living wage - and Corbyn et al are so supportive of EU labour rights - it would be funny if it weren't so serious. Austria were warned in they vote in a government the EU didn't like it would face EU censure. The less said about the way the EU has treated Greece the better. The idea that we can get rid of the likes of Junker and Tusk is delusional - we can't. These third rate politicians could run a bbq. Junker was a disaster in a microscopic country yet here he is running the costliest ineffective organisations on the planet - when he is not vexed that is. The Poles don't want Tusk anywhere near their political scene again - but with his huge EU pension he will not have a need thankfully. At citizens we have no influence on the top table of the EU. Workers rights issue has been exposed on here for the fiction they are - we have far better rights than the EU norm. As has the environmental - these are just feeble Labour attempts to block an exit. The elderly have been attacked for depriving the young of their future - the elderly voted for a trading bloc, what they didn't vote for was an EU super state where they dictated the laws - no wonder they voted out it wasn't what was promised. Leaving the EU will be tough but it will not be the calamity that many suggest. Business is agile it has to be to survive and it will find a way to prosper outside of the EU

Re: Boris Johnson : Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:31 am  

AXE2GRIND wrote:

As was your response. Isn't it refreshing to have a discussion without the usual "gubbin's that often accompanies it"

In terms of Workers rights and the UK v EU. The issue isn't the rights that workers enjoy now, but more about the rights that they will enjoy in the future. Trade Unions do not carry the same gravitas as they used to and those at the top of the food chain do desire us to adopt an American view on such matters, meaning that once an environment of unemployment is created (or a risk of unemployment) workers are more amenable to bending to the will of their bosses. Strike action, unless in a key area such as health, fire, police or underground is fairly rare now, whilst 0 hours contracts are rife.
In terms of Healthcare, the UK may well need to look at charging for certain services, especially to foreign nationals, but for UK citizens, it should be an absolute free service. The fact that the Right Wing are licking their lips at the cash to be made by flogging access to this goldmine should be setting of alarm bells.
In terms of Immigration, the article admits that numbers were underestimated in regards to eastern Europeans, but nearly 1,000,000 poles have since returned home since the vote, so whilst poor areas (you mention Leigh, Ealing Broadway was full of polish a decade ago) have seen an influx, it is the impact on an already stretched infrastructure dealing with benefit claimants that has seen tipping point, meaning there was an issue with Leigh before Ivan and his mates moved in, but it was easier for Boris et al to blame the immigrants, rather than the problems created by the Tories bailing out the banks and targeting the poor to pay for it.

I fail to see where this fear of the Tories reducing workers rights comes from. The Tories have been in power for many years in that time have they removed any workers rights? Why should this start now - surely economically we will not worse than we were during the banking crisis? Is reducing workers rights a vote winner - definitely not so why do it?

In terms of the NHS it will always be free to use even for those who don't pay in - Foreign nationals outside of the EU if we are still in should pay to use it - they don't pay in so why should they get it for free. The NHS already has a mechanism to outsource - waiting lists. These are often so prohibitively long that it forces some people to seek an alternative remedy.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Boris Johnson : Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:02 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I fail to see where this fear of the Tories reducing workers rights comes from. The Tories have been in power for many years in that time have they removed any workers rights? Why should this start now - surely economically we will not worse than we were during the banking crisis? Is reducing workers rights a vote winner - definitely not so why do it?

The Conservatives are the party of capital, with a long history of prioritising its interests ahead of labour rights. While the Conservatives have been in government since 2010, their ability to de-regulate the labour market and change workers’ rights has been constrained by EU law. Leaving the EU is why this may start now. The fear (or hope, I suppose) is even greater because the One Nation wing of the party is in retreat and Johnson’s cabinet is further to the economic right than Cameron’s or May’s. However, it will only happen with a democratic mandate - if people vote to keep people like Dominic Raab and JRM in power, then they are willing to accept lighter regulation and different (i’m trying to avoid emotive or overly biased language, but realistically I mean ‘lower’) standards, and that is their choice.

Why would many people, who rely on selling their labour, do that... why might it be a vote winner? Well, that is a question based on the assumption that we live in a democracy. And we do, both legally and to a large extent in reality. But it isn’t a pure democracy - such a thing would be hugely difficult to achieve and maintain. To some degree the UK is a de facto plutocracy. The Conservatives particularly rely on the support of plutocrats to gain and hold power, and therefore tend to prioritise their interests ahead of those of workers.

Re: Boris Johnson : Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:12 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The Poles voted in a Law and Justice party to get rid of a corrupt blocking legal system.

I'll cut the rest of this misinformed (being polite rant) to just mention that we can add an understanding of Polish politics and corruption to the things Sal pontificates on but doesn't actually know about.

Re: Boris Johnson : Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:55 pm  

Does Johnson even know how many kids he’s got. Although with him being a Tory i should say “does Johnson know how many piglets he’s got”. Pigs & Tories seem to be quite close to one another.