Re: Kier Starmer : Sat May 01, 2021 6:35 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Many price in the lying to other people with Johnson, but a lot (weirdly) don’t think he’ll lie to them.

Spot on. It's a fascinating phenomenon.

Re: Kier Starmer : Sat May 01, 2021 7:05 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

Mild Rover wrote:

Many price in the lying to other people with Johnson, but a lot (weirdly) don’t think he’ll lie to them.

Spot on. It's a fascinating phenomenon.

I wonder how much this comes back to the identity politics bound up with Brexit that has driven some to the Tory party.
Allowing the idea that Johnson could have lied about anything gives rise to the chance that he was lying about Brexit (I mean really if you hadn't twigged this by now there's not much hope but there remain millions of true believers). It's such a cult-like badge of identity now that anything which questions it or the integrity of the disciples has to be disregarded.

Re: Kier Starmer : Sun May 02, 2021 6:22 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I know we've said it before but what a weird world you seem to live in where you think this stuff is either true or important - and what dangerously hard right media you must be consuming to have led you down this rabbit warren.

I think you live in a very unrealistic world where you can't seem to see what is actually going on in front of you. You appear to think the EU is some benign organisation who has an underlying interest in its citizens - I don't see that side of it.

The problem with wokeness is whatever you say you will be upsetting someone - that is the problem Labour seem to have. So instead of focussing on attacking the Tories on things that matter all you hear is Carpetgate, Cronism etc. Listen to the last few PMQs its embarrassing. Labour for some reason seem to be either out of touch or don't feel able to attack the Tories where it hurts. The NHS for a start - but perhaps they are weak here because they really wanted to turn it into the NCS. Getting back to normality quicker - again they are weak there because they want to extend the period of returning to normality etc. Getting kids education catch up - again they wanted schools closed longer and they have issues with the teaching unions.

To me money needs to spend getting the NHS back to running normally and reducing the waiting lists, kids need to catch up on their education and we need to open up quicker.

Re: Kier Starmer : Sun May 02, 2021 10:06 am  

I don't know how you've done it but you've conflated "wokeness" (whatever that is but it appears to involve right wing folk getting upset about people being nice to other people) with substantive policy issues. The first is a distraction from discussing the second for which there are a multitude of huge issues from the past decade of failure.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Kier Starmer : Sun May 02, 2021 10:43 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I don't know how you've done it but you've conflated "wokeness" (whatever that is but it appears to involve right wing folk getting upset about people being nice to other people) with substantive policy issues. The first is a distraction from discussing the second for which there are a multitude of huge issues from the past decade of failure.

I suppose it might be an accusation that liberals are so up tight about their boomer relatives misprounouncing Vaisakhi or themselves deciding on whether trans women are at an advantage in sports vs cis women, that they don’t also have time to put forward a broad vision for national renewal.

Or it could just be that concerns about honesty and integrity in public life are now considered woke, maybe? Like ‘who cares if Johnson is a scoundrel, as long as he gets the job done?’. It then comes down to what we think the job is, and if some people think it is delivering a very hard Brexit, blaming the EU for the inevitable problems associated with that and installing Union flags in more living rooms, it can be argued he is delivering.

Labour now (or soon-ish) has to decide if it can offer an alternative vision that is attractive to a portion of those people, or if it has to borrow some elements of what they already like. Leading in a new direction or representing more of what already exists.

Biden beat Trump, despite being about 160 years old, because enough people saw Trump for what he is. Eventually, I hope, Starmer will see off Johnson, despite being a bit wooden, because enough people will see Johnson for what he is. That said, it is astonishing to me that so many people haven’t seen it already, so you never can tell.

Re: Kier Starmer : Sun May 02, 2021 9:13 pm  

Lmao. Kier starmer has been found breaking lock down rules today. I look forward to the usual Labour fan boys saying either

1. Lying and say he hasn’t..or...
2. Whataboutery

Re: Kier Starmer : Sun May 02, 2021 9:36 pm  

Steph Curry wrote:

Lmao. Kier starmer has been found breaking lock down rules today. I look forward to the usual Labour fan boys saying either

1. Lying and say he hasn’t..or...
2. Whataboutery

I would be more worried about Johnson’s popularity if I was you and who paid to have Child number who knows bottom. This would be an ideal job for your because your nose is usually stuck up. I will let you work out what.

Re: Kier Starmer : Sun May 02, 2021 10:10 pm  

I suppose his list of crimes are diminishing, last week according to the mind of SC he organised a shooting by Police and allowed Saville to escape prosecution.

Re: Kier Starmer : Mon May 03, 2021 6:30 am  

Steph Curry wrote:

2. Whataboutery

Mr Pot!
Mr Kettle is so pleased to see you.

Re: Kier Starmer : Mon May 03, 2021 7:13 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

I suppose it might be an accusation that liberals are so up tight about their boomer relatives misprounouncing Vaisakhi or themselves deciding on whether trans women are at an advantage in sports vs cis women, that they don’t also have time to put forward a broad vision for national renewal.

Or it could just be that concerns about honesty and integrity in public life are now considered woke, maybe? Like ‘who cares if Johnson is a scoundrel, as long as he gets the job done?’. It then comes down to what we think the job is, and if some people think it is delivering a very hard Brexit, blaming the EU for the inevitable problems associated with that and installing Union flags in more living rooms, it can be argued he is delivering.

Labour now (or soon-ish) has to decide if it can offer an alternative vision that is attractive to a portion of those people, or if it has to borrow some elements of what they already like. Leading in a new direction or representing more of what already exists.

Biden beat Trump, despite being about 160 years old, because enough people saw Trump for what he is. Eventually, I hope, Starmer will see off Johnson, despite being a bit wooden, because enough people will see Johnson for what he is. That said, it is astonishing to me that so many people haven’t seen it already, so you never can tell.

I doubt very much Johnson will be leading the Tories into the next election - Stevie Wonder can see he will be a huge liability by that time - unless of course the polls remain as is.

By the time of the next election the economy will be on an upward curve which could be a challenge for Labour. The idea of greater state ownership wasn't attractive at the last election and it will not be at the next. The NHS will not be the issue it was and neither will Brexit - we will have learned to live with disfunctional relationship we negotiated - that is the way of business. All the predictions of long queues at Dover, food shortages haven't materialised and when we get back to a normalised holiday carry on the world will seem a much more pleasant place. What if Scotland get independence - Labour have no chance of power.