Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:39 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote: You just sound ridiculous making allowances and excuses for Palestinian murder... Nowhere near as "ridiculous" as someone supporting neo-fascists pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing. SmokeyTA wrote: Im not sure what you think about Hamas charter is Israeli propaganda... Get with the times, boy. Hamas agreed that Israel had a right to exist in 2006. SmokeyTA wrote: What the flying f@ck are you talking about? Thank you for illustrating so perfectly that you haven't a clue who it is you're acting as an apologist for. You happily witter about how awful those nasty Palestinians are, without a clue about what has been done to the Palestinian people for 60-odd years – and as though they should simply run away like the "dogs" that Ben Guerion described them as. Racist apologist.

SmokeyTA wrote: You just sound ridiculous making allowances and excuses for Palestinian murder... Nowhere near as "ridiculous" as someone supporting neo-fascists pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing. SmokeyTA wrote: Im not sure what you think about Hamas charter is Israeli propaganda... Get with the times, boy. Hamas agreed that Israel had a right to exist in 2006. SmokeyTA wrote: What the flying f@ck are you talking about? Thank you for illustrating so perfectly that you haven't a clue who it is you're acting as an apologist for. You happily witter about how awful those nasty Palestinians are, without a clue about what has been done to the Palestinian people for 60-odd years – and as though they should simply run away like the "dogs" that Ben Guerion described them as. Racist apologist.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:40 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote: You just sound ridiculous making allowances and excuses for Palestinian murder. Im not sure what you think about Hamas charter is Israeli propaganda. What the flying f@ck are you talking about? You do realise that Hamas do not represent all Palestinians, only those in Gaza? The principle party in the West Bank is Fatah. To imply that "Palestinian Murder" and Hamas activities are one in the same is disingenuous. Hamas Murder would be a more accurate interpretation. WHen Minty talks about "The Zionist terrorists never poisoned wells, shot people in the back of the head, drove people from their homes etc etc." she is talking about the following types of activities: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poisoning-the-village-wells-1.137154 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/23/palestinian-shot-by-israeli-forces-gaza http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F3C5978B53AAD6C8852579E4004FECA7 Here to help

SmokeyTA wrote: You just sound ridiculous making allowances and excuses for Palestinian murder. Im not sure what you think about Hamas charter is Israeli propaganda. What the flying f@ck are you talking about? You do realise that Hamas do not represent all Palestinians, only those in Gaza? The principle party in the West Bank is Fatah. To imply that "Palestinian Murder" and Hamas activities are one in the same is disingenuous. Hamas Murder would be a more accurate interpretation. WHen Minty talks about "The Zionist terrorists never poisoned wells, shot people in the back of the head, drove people from their homes etc etc." she is talking about the following types of activities: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poisoning-the-village-wells-1.137154 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/23/palestinian-shot-by-israeli-forces-gaza http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F3C5978B53AAD6C8852579E4004FECA7 Here to help

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:49 pm  

Nice one, Soldiers in Blue.

I find it quite extraordinary that so many people don't seem to know that the very foundation of the state of Israel was based on what we would readily call 'terrorist' activities. And those terrorists were seriously calculating in their biological warfare, for instance – they were not simply lobbing rockets in anger.

Some years ago, I was chatting with a guy who'd worked on Fleet Street for years. He remembered how, one day, one of his colleagues burst into the office, almost hysterical, sweating etc, and screaming that he'd just seen a terrorist walking down the street.

When they calmed the bloke down and got to the bottom of it, this was a man who'd served in Palestine, as it was, (he'd been an officer, incidentally) and the man he'd seen, in London, was Moshe Dayan.

Just to reiterate: I personally believe that a two-state solution is the only way forward, ultimately. But the one-sided nature of the condemnation, and the lack of any comprehension of what the Palestinians are faced with, on a daily basis, gets right on my tits. And they're not small tits.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:53 pm  

Soldiers in Blue wrote:

You do realise that Hamas do not represent all Palestinians, only those in Gaza? The principle party in the West Bank is Fatah. To imply that "Palestinian Murder" and Hamas activities are one in the same is disingenuous. Hamas Murder would be a more accurate interpretation.

A distinction I've been very careful to draw throughout this thread.

Similarly the Israeli government does not represent all Israeli citizens.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:28 pm  

Kosh wrote:

A distinction I've been very careful to draw throughout this thread.

If you say so, some may beg to differ.

Kosh wrote:

Similarly the Israeli government does not represent all Israeli citizens.

Well actually it does doesn't it as the Israelis have elected their Government and many Israelis support their government's actions.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:06 pm  

Mintball wrote:

No. I don't. But I think it's massively stupid to actually take account of the situation that the Palestinians are in, in reality, and then wonder that some of them don't lash out and wring hands when they do.

What do you expect? Politicians have failed them; the West ignores them and stops even mild criticism at the UN being passed. So politics clearly isn't much of a route.

They're effectively in a prison – and being shot at, while inside that prison.

Read the Boston Glove article – and then come back and explain what you think they should do against a state that is ideologically committed to ethnic cleansing.

Zionism is a far-right, nationalist ideology. Don't forget that a former member on these forums was not only a BNP supporter but a self-declared 'Christian-Zionist'. That should tell you a lot.

And as Desmond Tutu has said, what the Israeli state is enforcing is a form of apartheid. It wasn't acceptable in South Africa and it's no more acceptable in the Middle East.

Before the end of apartheid, were you condemning the ANC for its military campaign (and it was a damn sight more organised than what anyone in the Gaza is managing)?

Okay - just to be clear...

At no point have I defended the actions of Israel. Quite the opposite. At no point have I condemned the Palestinians for anything. My sole point has been that if we - quite correctly - condemn the Israeli government for targeting civilian populations then we cannot simply ignore or condone Hamas using the exact same tactics.

Apparently this somehow equates to support of Israel. I'm damned if I understand why, but there you go.

As for your question about apartheid South Africa, I'm afraid to say that at that time I was almost militantly ignorant of the facts. My recollection of my attitude at the time is of an incredibly shallow 'apartheid bad, Nelson Mandela good' naivety. Not something I'm proud of but I'm not about to pretend otherwise.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:12 pm  

Soldiers in Blue wrote:

If you say so, some may beg to differ.

Feel free to provide supporting quotes. I haven't double-checked everything I've typed but I'm pretty sure I've used the word Hamas rather than Palestinians. I certainly did when making my initial point.

What's more likely is that some on here, possibly you included, see anything other than total agreement with their own view as automatically being the exact opposite view and therefore read stuff into posts that simply isn't there.

Soldiers in Blue wrote:

Well actually it does doesn't it as the Israelis have elected their Government and many Israelis support their government's actions.

And Hamas is the duly elected government of Gaza, with the support of many Palestinians. How does this differ?

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:53 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Nice one, Soldiers in Blue.

I find it quite extraordinary that so many people don't seem to know that the very foundation of the state of Israel was based on what we would readily call 'terrorist' activities. And those terrorists were seriously calculating in their biological warfare, for instance – they were not simply lobbing rockets in anger.

Some years ago, I was chatting with a guy who'd worked on Fleet Street for years. He remembered how, one day, one of his colleagues burst into the office, almost hysterical, sweating etc, and screaming that he'd just seen a terrorist walking down the street.

When they calmed the bloke down and got to the bottom of it, this was a man who'd served in Palestine, as it was, (he'd been an officer, incidentally) and the man he'd seen, in London, was Moshe Dayan.

Just to reiterate: I personally believe that a two-state solution is the only way forward, ultimately. But the one-sided nature of the condemnation, and the lack of any comprehension of what the Palestinians are faced with, on a daily basis, gets right on my tits. And they're not small tits.

I know exactly what you mean apart from the boobs bit.

It is also pleasing to see that by page 20 of this thread some people appear to be seeing things slightly differently. That is not say that they were wrong in the first place just imho not even handed on the issue.

Re: Lest we forget : Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:40 am  

Mintball wrote:

And it frankly flabbergasts me that people don't realise this reality. The UK helps to arm the state of Israel. David Miliband made a decision, while in government, to continue that. William Hague says it's all only the fault of one side.

Both on The Andrew Marr Show this morning.
I can already hear the line the pair of them are going to trot out.

Re: Lest we forget : Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:07 am  

Mintball wrote: Nowhere near as "ridiculous" as someone supporting neo-fascists pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing. I agree, if someone were doing that, they would look ridiculous. As i havent seen anyone yet do that here, its just you looking ridiculous making excuses for murder. Get with the times, boy. Hamas agreed that Israel had a right to exist in 2006. You would think they would change their charter then wouldnt you. Maybe pull back on that blatantly anti-semitic language included within it, stop talking about the glory of killing Israelis. That statement would look a lot more realistic if Hamas foreign minister wasnt saying "I dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it," he said. "I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel)." "This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land," said al-Zahar. at the same time, and they werent holding an Israeli soldier hostage whilst saying it. But thats ok because its brave little palestine doing it, not of course, Big Bad Israel Thank you for illustrating so perfectly that you haven't a clue who it is you're acting as an apologist for. You happily witter about how awful those nasty Palestinians are, without a clue about what has been done to the Palestinian people for 60-odd years – and as though they should simply run away like the "dogs" that Ben Guerion described them as. Racist apologist. Im not apoligising for anyone. This is why i dont know what you are talking about, you seem to be reading different words to the ones im writing.

Mintball wrote: Nowhere near as "ridiculous" as someone supporting neo-fascists pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing. I agree, if someone were doing that, they would look ridiculous. As i havent seen anyone yet do that here, its just you looking ridiculous making excuses for murder. Get with the times, boy. Hamas agreed that Israel had a right to exist in 2006. You would think they would change their charter then wouldnt you. Maybe pull back on that blatantly anti-semitic language included within it, stop talking about the glory of killing Israelis. That statement would look a lot more realistic if Hamas foreign minister wasnt saying "I dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it," he said. "I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel)." "This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land," said al-Zahar. at the same time, and they werent holding an Israeli soldier hostage whilst saying it. But thats ok because its brave little palestine doing it, not of course, Big Bad Israel Thank you for illustrating so perfectly that you haven't a clue who it is you're acting as an apologist for. You happily witter about how awful those nasty Palestinians are, without a clue about what has been done to the Palestinian people for 60-odd years – and as though they should simply run away like the "dogs" that Ben Guerion described them as. Racist apologist. Im not apoligising for anyone. This is why i dont know what you are talking about, you seem to be reading different words to the ones im writing.