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Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"Well, and again without knowing what was tweeted, I do not believe that this lad was trying to make people laugh.
You also for some reason seem to overlook that he pleaded guilty to the offence.'"
It wasn’t tweeted, it was on his facebook page,
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/0 ... ods-jailed |
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Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"Well, and again without knowing what was tweeted, I do not believe that this lad was trying to make people laugh.
You also for some reason seem to overlook that he pleaded guilty to the offence.'"
It wasn’t tweeted, it was on his facebook page,
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/0 ... ods-jailed | |
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| Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"But 12 weeks in prison? Perspective surely considering all the ills in the world.'"
I don't know how I can assess the perspective if I don't know what he put. I don't think it helps to try to blur the discussion by inferring that because many people get away with or walk free from perceived very bad things, that should go in his favour, though.
I'll bet it is a message that has been driven very widely home amongst the millions of Twitter users, though. Even those as stupid as him. |
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| Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"What ever happened to sticks and stones? '"
This is an interesting point.
The thing is, words often can do far more harm than a punch. Much bullying is not physical in nature - but that doesn't mean it does no damage. Self-esteem, for instance, is far more difficult to 'cure' than a bruised arm. We know, for instance, of cases where verbal bullying has driven children and young people to suicide. So it's not something that is 'victimless'.
And it seems perhaps odd that many people, who would be openly dismissive of anyone appearing to favour a perpetrator over a victim would do that themselves when it comes to verbal bullying.
But I am equally uncomfortable with what appears to be an increasing culture of saying that anything that offends (or offends over a certain line - which is inevitably pretty subjective) is a criminal offence.
There is a difference between this incident (as reported) and bullying.
There should never be any right not to be offended. And this, in my book, is a vast overreaction.
Incitement would be a different matter, but there are laws to deal with that.
Criminalising offense, though? No. Absolutely not. And yes, that includes 'hate speech' too, providing it is not incitement. |
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I with you on the bullying, but this wasn't a prolonged bullying campaign it was a very bad judgement on 'his own facebook page', supposedly only for people who know him.
April's family would never have known and going on to the self esteem point, i would suggest this lad probably suffers himself, it doesn't in anyway vindicate what he says, and i personally would never advocate it but the prosecution seems a grossly disproportionate response to something that was just ill advised and plain idiotic.
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What happened to offence being taken rather than given?
There are plenty of things around you could take offence at, most of us just rise above it and get on with life.
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Ridiculous to jail someone for comments on his own page.
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What about if people start saying stuff about politicians, and they find it vile?
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"...
But I am equally uncomfortable with what appears to be an increasing culture of saying that anything that offends (or offends over a certain line - which is inevitably pretty subjective) is a criminal offence.
..'"
Me too. All the more so because the principal lobbyists for extended criminalisation are, predictably, the religionists, who all seem to unite on wanting a keen blasphemy crime actively being policed. And they can probably be offended several hundred factors more than you or I could ever hope to be. |
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Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"I with you on the bullying, but this wasn't a prolonged bullying campaign ...'"
Oh, I completely agree.
Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"... it was a very bad judgement on 'his own facebook page', supposedly only for people who know him...'"
But even if it was intended for a wider audience ... Should Kelvin MacKenzie go to jail for what he said about Liverpool fans at Hillsborough?
Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"... going on to the self esteem point, i would suggest this lad probably suffers himself, it doesn't in anyway vindicate what he says, and i personally would never advocate it but the prosecution seems a grossly disproportionate response to something that was just ill advised and plain idiotic.'"
Agreed and agreed. Go back to the Tom Daley incident during the Games – a teenager, living on their own in a bedsit? We're talking about someone who needs help to get their life sorted out rather than a prison sentence. Fortunately, there was no conviction there.
One does have to wonder how that is different from 'all sinners will die and go to hell'.
Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"What about if people start saying stuff about politicians, and they find it vile?'"
Does it count that I tweeted Danny Alexander and called him the most underqualified, overpromoted man in government? Politely, of course.
Quote Horatio Yed="Ferocious Aardvark"Me too. All the more so because the principal lobbyists for extended criminalisation are, predictably, the religionists, who all seem to unite on wanting a keen blasphemy crime actively being policed. And they can probably be offended several hundred factors more than you or I could ever hope to be.'"
Bang on. Although I'd suggest that it has its recent roots in something perhaps slightly different: in criticism of the state of Israel being met (by certain people) with accusations of anti-semitism, a smear that most people are keen to avoid, bearing in mind not-that-distant history.
Some Muslims developed their own strand of that with any criticism of their religion being denounced as 'Islamophobia', and Christians appear unwilling to be left out these days, as we've see – with Lord Carey even now comparing these persecuted souls as akin to the Jews just before the start of the Holocaust 'proper'.
Mind, you've also got the litigiousness of the Scientologists if you dare to suggest they're a c**t.
God is bloody thin-skinned, isn't he? Y'know, for a god. |
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Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"I with you on the bullying, but this wasn't a prolonged bullying campaign ...'"
Oh, I completely agree.
Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"... it was a very bad judgement on 'his own facebook page', supposedly only for people who know him...'"
But even if it was intended for a wider audience ... Should Kelvin MacKenzie go to jail for what he said about Liverpool fans at Hillsborough?
Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"... going on to the self esteem point, i would suggest this lad probably suffers himself, it doesn't in anyway vindicate what he says, and i personally would never advocate it but the prosecution seems a grossly disproportionate response to something that was just ill advised and plain idiotic.'"
Agreed and agreed. Go back to the Tom Daley incident during the Games – a teenager, living on their own in a bedsit? We're talking about someone who needs help to get their life sorted out rather than a prison sentence. Fortunately, there was no conviction there.
One does have to wonder how that is different from 'all sinners will die and go to hell'.
Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"What about if people start saying stuff about politicians, and they find it vile?'"
Does it count that I tweeted Danny Alexander and called him the most underqualified, overpromoted man in government? Politely, of course.
Quote Horatio Yed="Ferocious Aardvark"Me too. All the more so because the principal lobbyists for extended criminalisation are, predictably, the religionists, who all seem to unite on wanting a keen blasphemy crime actively being policed. And they can probably be offended several hundred factors more than you or I could ever hope to be.'"
Bang on. Although I'd suggest that it has its recent roots in something perhaps slightly different: in criticism of the state of Israel being met (by certain people) with accusations of anti-semitism, a smear that most people are keen to avoid, bearing in mind not-that-distant history.
Some Muslims developed their own strand of that with any criticism of their religion being denounced as 'Islamophobia', and Christians appear unwilling to be left out these days, as we've see – with Lord Carey even now comparing these persecuted souls as akin to the Jews just before the start of the Holocaust 'proper'.
Mind, you've also got the litigiousness of the Scientologists if you dare to suggest they're a c**t.
God is bloody thin-skinned, isn't he? Y'know, for a god. | |
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| Quote Horatio Yed="Horatio Yed"What about if people start saying stuff about politicians, and they find it vile?'"
Wonder if anyone joking/commenting about Jimmy Saville will suffer the same fate???
It is a slippery slope and some of the prosecutions that came from last years riots were equally farcical (as in what was posted on the net) and it could indeed be used for more political purposes very soon and perhaps that is what the powers at be actually want.
Could make the next election and any vote on EEC membership "interesting". |
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I the case of Savile, it's reported today that the police are investigating well over 100 allegations of sexual offences.
My question is, why? I'm not saying somebody shouldn't, but how is it a police matter, if the alleged offender is dead? You can't prosecute a corpse.
I'd be happier if our severely stretched police resources were spent just on investigations that might lead to some villains being apprehended and dealt with.
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| Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"
My question is, why? I'm not saying somebody shouldn't, but how is it a police matter, if the alleged offender is dead? You can't prosecute a corpse.
'"
No, but you can prosecute those who may have 'aided and abetted' in any crimes and who withheld or suppressed evidence. |
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| Quote Derwent="Derwent"No, but you can prosecute those who may have 'aided and abetted' in any crimes and who withheld or suppressed evidence.'"
But surely you need a crime to have been committed in the first place? As regards inchoate offences how can you charge anyone with aiding and abetting an offence unless somebody is guilty of that offence?
As for withholding or suppressing evidence, nobody has any legal duty to come forward with evidence they may have about such offences, it may be morally reprehensible but it's no crime.
As for "suppressing evidence" there would presumably have to be an ongoing police investigation into offences from which someone then "suppressed" evidence they held, but isn't it the case that none of this hundred or so ever complained to the police, so there were no police investigations? If you don't mean physical evidence, then no, there's no law against keeping schtumm, you can suppress whatever knowledge you like. |
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Hey what a surprise, a pretty little white girl goes missing and the whole female population of the UK outpours it's grief and over-reacts to just about anything related to the case. Yet again a MAN's name and face is plastered everywhere for all to see before he's even been found guilty. Terrible what happened to the girl, but the over-reaction does my f8cking head in
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| Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"
As for "suppressing evidence" there would presumably have to be an ongoing police investigation into offences from which someone then "suppressed" evidence they held, but isn't it the case that none of this hundred or so ever complained to the police, so there were no police investigations? If you don't mean physical evidence, then no, there's no law against keeping schtumm, you can suppress whatever knowledge you like.'"
But there have been police investigations into Savile previously, twice in Jersey for example. What if people lied to the police and helped to pervert the course of justice during those investigations ? I'm not saying that they did but, for example, I reckon the Haut de la Garenne case would have opened a big can of worms with Savile just the tip of the iceberg if the whole truth had been revealed. |
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| Quote 100% Wire="100% Wire"Hey what a surprise, a pretty little white girl goes missing and the whole female population of the UK outpours it's grief and over-reacts to just about anything related to the case. Yet again a MAN's name and face is plastered everywhere for all to see before he's even been found guilty. Terrible what happened to the girl, but the over-reaction does my f8cking head in'"
As opposed to some individual who claims that "the whole female population of the UK" is involved? What – 100% of females of these islands? Really? You did a survey?
A bit of hyperbolic overthetopness, methinks.
And obviously nothing at all like the males being held back by police from the van carrying the accused to court yesterday – oh no, sirree. That behaviour was entirely under the top, wasn't it?
A shame, because you had a couple of otherwise valid points. |
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| Quote Derwent="Derwent"But there have been police investigations into Savile previously, twice in Jersey for example. What if people lied to the police and helped to pervert the course of justice during those investigations ? ...'"
Then of course they should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice!
How is investigating 120 (current count) unrelated cases relevant to that? |
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| Quote Ferocious Aardvark="Ferocious Aardvark"Then of course they should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice!
How is investigating 120 (current count) unrelated cases relevant to that?'"
Because...
1. It may well lead to new lines of enquiry; and
2. It may well unearth new information on some people who are still alive and perhaps still actively pursuing such activities
I don't think the investigation is purely about Savile, more about what they may uncover from a wider perspective if they dig deep enough. It is probably unlikely that Savile acted alone in his 'predatory sexual offences' (as described today by the Met Police). If the vilification of Savile brings other guilty parties to justice then thats fine in my view.
Anyway, none of this has anything to do with this thread so better let it rest there really. |
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Apparently, the police have already found him guilty so no need for any further investigation!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19887019
Quote At this stage it is quite clear from what women are telling us that Savile was a predatory sex offender,"At this stage it is quite clear from what women are telling us that Savile was a predatory sex offender," said Commander Peter Spindler, head of specialist crime investigations, in an interview with the BBC.'"
How a police chief can come out with a statement like this is unbelievable. |
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Apparently, the police have already found him guilty so no need for any further investigation!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19887019
Quote At this stage it is quite clear from what women are telling us that Savile was a predatory sex offender,"At this stage it is quite clear from what women are telling us that Savile was a predatory sex offender," said Commander Peter Spindler, head of specialist crime investigations, in an interview with the BBC.'"
How a police chief can come out with a statement like this is unbelievable. | |
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A Wigan Athletic fans forum has had rumours about Jimmy Savile on various threads for a couple of years now. A more recent one has allegations wrt another 70s R1 DJ, who also presented childrens TV shows, based on his own memoirs!
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The quotes I've seen from his autobiography – published in 1974 or '76 – are pretty clear. He also asserted that, in effect, 'everyone else was doing it', including the police.
As it happens (so to speak), I heard around 18 years ago, from a former [iTelegraph[/i TV critic who had recently moved to the [iMail[/i as the film critic. His take on it was that Savile knew where other people's skeletons were hidden.
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"The quotes I've seen from his autobiography – published in 1974 or '76 – are pretty clear. He also asserted that, in effect, 'everyone else was doing it', including the police.
As it happens (so to speak), I heard around 18 years ago, from a former [iTelegraph[/i TV critic who had recently moved to the [iMail[/i as the film critic. His take on it was that Savile knew where other people's skeletons were hidden.'"
That argument realistically only holds up for so long really though doesnt it.
The people who Savile may have had dirt on some people in the 70's, 80's and early 90's werent the same people who would bring it to light in the late 90's and the last decade. |
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"That argument realistically only holds up for so long really though doesnt it.
The people who Savile may have had dirt on some people in the 70's, 80's and early 90's werent the same people who would bring it to light in the late 90's and the last decade.'"
I suspect that, by then, his celebrity and his 'charidee work' made it more difficult to come out and say anything.
There is a story that a newspaper was going to publish something, but he simply said: 'go ahead: just think of all the money Stoke Manderville will lose'. They didn't publish. |
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"I suspect that, by then, his celebrity and his 'charidee work' made it more difficult to come out and say anything.
There is a story that a newspaper was going to publish something, but he simply said: 'go ahead: just think of all the money Stoke Manderville will lose'. They didn't publish.'"
There are a lot of things which are coming out which there doesnt seem to be any evidence for, or seem to be taking on a different tone which has meant this story has begun to eat itself, where every remark is looked at in the context of being spoken by a highly active paedophile/conspiracy/coverup which in turn becomes evidence of a highly active paedophile/conspiracy/coverup |
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