[Kosh]

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:06 pm  

Neil HFC wrote:

Dinner = Main meal of day,
so

Mon - Fri => Dinner in the evening, Lunch during day
Sat/Sun => Dinner during Day => Tea in the evening.

That's pretty widely applicable, but how often have you seen a pub or restaurant advertise a Sunday Dinner?

Come to that, how often have you seen any eatery offer a midday 'Dinner Menu'?

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:59 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Certainly in Yorkshire, though, your big meal in the evening is your "tea", which is a complete change from what began life as "afternoon tea". So a typical Yorkshireman may have a breakfast early doors, and is likely to use "me dinner" interchangeably with "me lunch", but he will always be off home for 'is tea - and never off home for 'is dinner unless at dinnertime.

Was pretty much the same when I lived in North Devon, so I don't think it is limited to the M62 corridor.

Anyone else familiar with the term "putting-up"? In my family this was always referred to as the packed lunch as well as the act of making the packed lunch: "I've got the putting-up to do.", "Have you got your putting-up?".

Kosh wrote:

That's pretty widely applicable, but how often have you seen a pub or restaurant advertise a Sunday Dinner?

Come to that, how often have you seen any eatery offer a midday 'Dinner Menu'?

We always had Sunday dinner at about 2 0'clock on a Sunday afternoon, same with Christmas dinner.

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:06 am  

LF13 wrote:

We always had Sunday dinner at about 2 0'clock on a Sunday afternoon, same with Christmas dinner.

2 o'clock was pretty much universal I think as the Sunday pub opening times were 12noon 'till 2pm in the good old days when men (and their sons) went to the pub and the woman stayed in the house and cooked for them, and woe betide her if it wasn't on the table at 2.15 when they walked in the house.

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:02 am  

Kosh wrote:

That's pretty widely applicable, but how often have you seen a pub or restaurant advertise a Sunday Dinner?
Come to that, how often have you seen any eatery offer a midday 'Dinner Menu'?

Ah, yes ... but we must remember that eateries are not the best source of correct language (Barbudo's Menu Rule states that all menus contain at least one spelling mostake, for example), plus they like to use obscure words wherever possible ... even if they don't know what they mean (I saw pithivier on a menu once and asked what it was and the waiter had to go away and ask ... even then, it was wrong), so I don't think we should use them as exemplars of terminology.
If we did, we wouldn't say "fried" we'd say "pan fried" ... and just ask Cod'ead about Bass.

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:07 am  

LF13 wrote:

Was pretty much the same when I lived in North Devon, so I don't think it is limited to the M62 corridor.

Anyone else familiar with the term "putting-up"? In my family this was always referred to as the packed lunch as well as the act of making the packed lunch: "I've got the putting-up to do.", "Have you got your putting-up?".

We always had Sunday dinner at about 2 0'clock on a Sunday afternoon, same with Christmas dinner.

Yes, "Snap" was put up ... as in "I'm putting his snap up".

But it wouldn't have been "Have you got your putting-up?" in my experience, rather it would have been "Have you got your put-up?"... but that could be a small regional variation.

[John_D]

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:22 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

If we did, we wouldn't say "fried" we'd say "pan fried" ... and just ask Cod'ead about Bass.

Pan-fried.... I'm always pleased to know it's been fried in a pan, not held in the hand over a roaring flame.
What the frick else was it going to be fried in ffs? The wreck of the QE2?

See also 'oven roasted'. Yeah, that's how you roast things - in an effin oven. Not in a small Japanese hatchback.

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:24 am  

Kosh wrote:

You're aware that foreign languages get translated into English, yes? Guess what the English translation for the midday meal is.

Er, first it doesn't need translating. "The midday meal" is already in English.

But OK, let Google translate do some random translating, and see what it turns up:

Polish:
OBIAD
dinner

noun
1. dinner
2. midday meal

Hmm. Maybe Google Translate is just doing that to spite you. Let's try another one.

Estonian:
lõuna
south

noun
1. south
2. lunch
3. dinner
4. luncheon

Norwegian
middag

1. middag

Kosh wrote:

Words and their usage change over time. The question asked was not about the origin of the word, but about usage.

You can get as indignant as you like, but there is no universal usage, or universal answer, and I think my view - that much depends on the size of the meal, and when the eater has their main meal of the day - is fair and accurate.

Your point about translations is in fact disingenuous, as any translator, when faced with the word for a given meal in a foreign language, will only provide a translation which is his understanding of the English equivalent. Which for obvious reasons will be heavily influenced by (a) who taught him English and their predilections and/or (b) whereabouts in English speaking lands he has lived (if at all). As my varying examples above clearly show.

But it's not just me. Somebody asked the question to Gareth Rees on the BBC learning site. This is what he had to say:

BBC's Gareth Rees wrote:

In the middle of the day, you might have lunch or dinner. Lunch sounds more informal or more typical, particularly for people who are working.

In the evening, you might have dinner or supper. I think that people who have a quick lunch in the middle of the day will say they have dinner in the evening and this dinner will be a good meal.

A supper is usually a light meal and is probably had after a larger dinner has been had in the middle of the day.

Confused? Well most people see a dinner as a more complete meal. A common lunch in England is a sandwich, but dinner might include soup, meat with vegetables, and then a dessert like apple pie and ice cream. So, dinner is really the main meal and people might have it in the middle of the day or in the evening. Lunch and supper are both light kinds of meal. Lunch is in the middle of the day, supper is in the evening.

I'm going along with that as the best answer of modern usage.

[Kosh]

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:41 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

:? Er, first it doesn't need translating. "The midday meal" is already in English.

But OK, let Google translate do some random translating, and see what it turns up:

Hmm. Maybe Google Translate is just doing that to spite you. Let's try another one.

I have to say I was going on how my foreign colleagues translated into English rather than Google Translate (which is far from infallible). A quick play around does come up with some surprising results that don't tally with how Germans and French - for example - actually use the terms. Speaking of German, mittagessen does translate to lunch in english and abendessen translates to dinner. I knew there was a reason why I liked Germans.

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

You can get as indignant as you like, but there is no universal usage, or universal answer, and I think my view - that much depends on the size of the meal, and when the eater has their main meal of the day - is fair and accurate.

I wasn't getting indignant at all, merely pointing out that you appeared to be moving some goalposts. And in practice I find that most people still tend to call the midday meal lunch regardless of how large it might be - the exception typically being a traditional Sunday roast for some reason.

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

But it's not just me. Somebody asked the question to Gareth Rees on the BBC learning site. This is what he had to say:

I'm going along with that as the best answer of modern usage.

His description does not reflect my daily experience over the last 50 years or so spent in a variety of geographical locations. If I had to produce a list of the most common meal descriptors in chronological order it would be something along the lines of:

Breakfast
Brunch
Lunch
Tea
Dinner
Supper

Although tea and dinner are somewhat interchangeable, and the above list doesn't apply to Hobbits.

[Pumpetypump]

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:34 pm  

My daughter's school in Leeds (pronounced lids) has a paradoxical system of 'lunch-buddies' to help the little monkeys eat the gruel, overseen by 'Dinner-ladies'.

Re: Lunch ... or dinner? : Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:56 pm  

Kosh wrote:

Speaking of German, mittagessen does translate to lunch in english and abendessen translates to dinner. I knew there was a reason why I liked Germans.

How do you work that out? The literal translation is pretty much midday meal and evening meal.