Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:29 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

£20k would not be unusual for a criminal aid lawyer in the provinces

That is amazingly low, especially when you consider the training that goes into becoming a lawyer/solicitor. Why would anyone bother when you can get almost twice that by training as a plumber or electrician.

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:42 pm  

rover49 wrote:

That is amazingly low, especially when you consider the training that goes into becoming a lawyer/solicitor. Why would anyone bother when you can get almost twice that by training as a plumber or electrician.

They are all greedy basstard fat cats who are attracted by cuts in pay of 30% in a good year, spending nights in police cells with some of society's misfits and outcasts and worst criminals, and working 14 hour days.

In fact there's a reasonable analogy between your average police station lawyer and an experienced hospital nurse; neither of them do it for the money, and both get regularly dumped on by the "government". The big difference is people love nurses and hate lawyers, but that hasn't helped the nurses much.

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:58 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

They are all greedy basstard fat cats who are attracted by cuts in pay of 30% in a good year, spending nights in police cells with some of society's misfits and outcasts and worst criminals, and working 14 hour days.

In fact there's a reasonable analogy between your average police station lawyer and an experienced hospital nurse; neither of them do it for the money, and both get regularly dumped on by the "government". The big difference is people love nurses and hate lawyers, but that hasn't helped the nurses much.

'People hate lawyers'

When I was doing some work for a doctor once he said 'there are certain people who should never admit to what they do on holiday' these were doctors (someone has always got a problem with some body part), plumbers (someone will have a dodgy boiler) and lawyers (because two weeks by the pool on your own is a long time !!)

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:01 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

£20k would not be unusual for a criminal aid lawyer in the provinces

Seconded.

I have quite a few friends who are practising.

£18K-30K is the going rate for a criminal solicitor in the provinces. This can be added to by doing some 'duty' work (courts / police stations - unsociable hours), but it is rare to see anyone earn much more than £40K. During out of hours work the chances are the copper sitting opposite you in the interview room is earning more than you are.

Barristers do not fare better. 4 year qualified criminal barrister in Leeds billing £60K. They lose 1/3 in chambers fees and expenses, which leaves them with £40K, on which they then have to pay tax. Plus a barrister is self-employed, so no benefits of paid holidays etc...

By way of contrast, in 'commercial' law salaries can reach £100K p/a for newly qualified solicitors, albeit you would have to go to London to get this. One of my mates from uni qualified as a barrister in a commercial set in Manchester. He billed £120K in his first 8 months thereafter. Even taking into account losing 1/3 to expenses and chambers fees, then tax, that is one heck of a lot of money.

You can (just about) make a reasonable living from criminal law at the moment. But you could probably earn more as an estate agent or used car salesman, no disrespect to either of these intended. And they don't have to spend several years studying and training to get there.

If the government kick the booty out of it this area of law will struggle to attract decent graduates.

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:05 pm  

Welcome to the real World FA. I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade will fall on deaf ears. Not least amongst those whose jobs in the manufacturing, ship building and mining industries disappeared a long time ago. I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration? It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have screwed the system for all it's worth. Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the trough. No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet.......

Welcome to the real World FA. I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade will fall on deaf ears. Not least amongst those whose jobs in the manufacturing, ship building and mining industries disappeared a long time ago. I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration? It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have screwed the system for all it's worth. Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the trough. No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet.......

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:09 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote: Welcome to the real World FA. I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade will fall on deaf ears. Not least amongst those whose jobs in the manufacturing, ship building and mining industries disappeared a long time ago. I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration? It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have screwed the system for all it's worth. Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the trough. No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet....... Did you miss the part about criminal defence lawyers earning significantly less than their colleagues in other areas of law?

rumpelstiltskin wrote: Welcome to the real World FA. I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade will fall on deaf ears. Not least amongst those whose jobs in the manufacturing, ship building and mining industries disappeared a long time ago. I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration? It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have screwed the system for all it's worth. Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the trough. No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet....... Did you miss the part about criminal defence lawyers earning significantly less than their colleagues in other areas of law?

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:15 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote: Welcome to the real World FA. I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade will fall on deaf ears. Not least amongst those whose jobs in the manufacturing, ship building and mining industries disappeared a long time ago. I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration? It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have screwed the system for all it's worth. Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the trough. No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet....... Someone earning £190K is not going to be practising criminal law. Unless they are a QC at the very top of the profession. Your attitude to criminal lawyers may change somewhat the day you are sat in a police station going 5p/50p because someone has made a spurious accusation against you. Particularly if it is a serious allegation and you have a lot to lose (job / career etc...) You may think this unlikely, but it is amazing how often drunken sex with a girl you met in a nightclub becomes alleged rape, the morning after, and when her significant other finds out. We can all hope this doesn't happen, but if it does, you want an experienced criminal solicitor on your side, not just a spotty 21 year old who has no formal legal qualifications other than a few quick courses in police station attendance.

rumpelstiltskin wrote: Welcome to the real World FA. I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade will fall on deaf ears. Not least amongst those whose jobs in the manufacturing, ship building and mining industries disappeared a long time ago. I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration? It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have screwed the system for all it's worth. Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the trough. No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet....... Someone earning £190K is not going to be practising criminal law. Unless they are a QC at the very top of the profession. Your attitude to criminal lawyers may change somewhat the day you are sat in a police station going 5p/50p because someone has made a spurious accusation against you. Particularly if it is a serious allegation and you have a lot to lose (job / career etc...) You may think this unlikely, but it is amazing how often drunken sex with a girl you met in a nightclub becomes alleged rape, the morning after, and when her significant other finds out. We can all hope this doesn't happen, but if it does, you want an experienced criminal solicitor on your side, not just a spotty 21 year old who has no formal legal qualifications other than a few quick courses in police station attendance.

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:15 pm  

The Video Ref wrote:

Seconded.

I have quite a few friends who are practising.

£18K-30K is the going rate for a criminal solicitor in the provinces. This can be added to by doing some 'duty' work (courts / police stations - unsociable hours), but it is rare to see anyone earn much more than £40K. During out of hours work the chances are the copper sitting opposite you in the interview room is earning more than you are.

Barristers do not fare better. 4 year qualified criminal barrister in Leeds billing £60K. They lose 1/3 in chambers fees and expenses, which leaves them with £40K, on which they then have to pay tax. Plus a barrister is self-employed, so no benefits of paid holidays etc...

By way of contrast, in 'commercial' law salaries can reach £100K p/a for newly qualified solicitors, albeit you would have to go to London to get this. One of my mates from uni qualified as a barrister in a commercial set in Manchester. He billed £120K in his first 8 months thereafter. Even taking into account losing 1/3 to expenses and chambers fees, then tax, that is one heck of a lot of money.

You can (just about) make a reasonable living from criminal law at the moment. But you could probably earn more as an estate agent or used car salesman, no disrespect to either of these intended. And they don't have to spend several years studying and training to get there.

If the government kick the booty out of it this area of law will struggle to attract decent graduates.

Why do they need decent graduates, though? They'll only be representing poor people, so it doesn't matter if they're utterly incompetent.

This situation reminds me of a scene from (I think) one of the Rush Hour films where Chris Rock is reading a suspect his rights:

"You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, we will provide you with the dumbest fxcking lawyer on Earth."

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:21 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote: Welcome to the real World FA. Does that actually mean anything? No? thought not. rumpelstiltskin wrote: I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade Who would they be, then? rumpelstiltskin wrote: I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration? As your apocryphal tale has NOTHING to do with the criminal legal aid debate, why did you bother? rumpelstiltskin wrote: It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have screwed the system for all it's worth. And so give me one good reason why those who are proved to have done so, should not be the ones being screwed over? Again, this has NOTHING to do with this debate. rumpelstiltskin wrote: Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. I'm a very long way from your chum, you arrogant airhead. rumpelstiltskin wrote: Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, Are you accusing me of making fake comments? rumpelstiltskin wrote: there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the trough. Again - IF there is a problem with some small number of big earning firms (and if they do a lot of work then why should they not be paid for it) then why not address THAT SPECIFIC problem? And if mega-firms churning through mass produced cases are the problem - why is Failing Grayling's masterplan to get all existing firms to merge into a small number of regional or national giants? Wouldn't that be creating potentially just more cash guzzling monsters? rumpelstiltskin wrote: No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet....... What breathtaking snobbery? Aldi do some good stuff, but that aside, as I have not done criminal law, nor legal aid, for many years, you are talking absolutely out of your ignorant and rude arrse. I have NO financial stake in this debate, and am therefore in a fine place to debate it as I know what I am talking about from personal experience. But I do recognise that it is beyond the limited brainpower of Wail readers to comprehend simple facts. Not that you would want to. Never let facts nor reasoned arguments stand in the way of your blind prejudice and rash assumptions, eh? Here's a tissue - see if you can wipe some of that spittle off your screen and keyboard.

rumpelstiltskin wrote: Welcome to the real World FA. Does that actually mean anything? No? thought not. rumpelstiltskin wrote: I suspect the outraged squeals from the avaricious brigade Who would they be, then? rumpelstiltskin wrote: I remember a young partner in a large regional firm bitching in my office that his salary for next year, (2005 ish) was being reduced by 30K, down to penury levels of £190k!!! I noticed that when this particular firm went tits up in Feb this year, £320k was now the going rate. I wonder, Dear Reader, in these straitened times, just how many amongst us have enjoyed that sort of financial remuneration? As your apocryphal tale has NOTHING to do with the criminal legal aid debate, why did you bother? rumpelstiltskin wrote: It is also a matter of record, that certain members of what is arguably the least respected profession, have screwed the system for all it's worth. And so give me one good reason why those who are proved to have done so, should not be the ones being screwed over? Again, this has NOTHING to do with this debate. rumpelstiltskin wrote: Nils Desperandum my pinstriped chum. I'm a very long way from your chum, you arrogant airhead. rumpelstiltskin wrote: Whist your crocodile tears are certainly wasted on me FA, Are you accusing me of making fake comments? rumpelstiltskin wrote: there's still some food to be dredged up from the bottom of the trough. Again - IF there is a problem with some small number of big earning firms (and if they do a lot of work then why should they not be paid for it) then why not address THAT SPECIFIC problem? And if mega-firms churning through mass produced cases are the problem - why is Failing Grayling's masterplan to get all existing firms to merge into a small number of regional or national giants? Wouldn't that be creating potentially just more cash guzzling monsters? rumpelstiltskin wrote: No need for Mrs FA to grace Aldi just yet....... What breathtaking snobbery? Aldi do some good stuff, but that aside, as I have not done criminal law, nor legal aid, for many years, you are talking absolutely out of your ignorant and rude arrse. I have NO financial stake in this debate, and am therefore in a fine place to debate it as I know what I am talking about from personal experience. But I do recognise that it is beyond the limited brainpower of Wail readers to comprehend simple facts. Not that you would want to. Never let facts nor reasoned arguments stand in the way of your blind prejudice and rash assumptions, eh? Here's a tissue - see if you can wipe some of that spittle off your screen and keyboard.

Re: Dismantling of the justice system : Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:35 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Here's a tissue - see if you can wipe some of that spittle off your screen and keyboard.

Er, I'm not sure that's spittle...