Re: Armed teachers : Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:13 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Second, realistically, are they seriously suggesting that a teacher, with maybe a couple of sessions at the local gun club, can be expected to draw their weapon, and coolly "take out" a madman with an assault rifle? I don't think so, and the thought of several parents and teachers all in a panic loosing off shots at random is surely a recipe for utter disaster. Not to mention a guarantee that a teacher will "take out" a parent or vice versa in the mistaken belief that they were the crazed gunman. It sounds superficially attractive until you think about it for more than 2 seconds.

Spot on. Even the police in the US aren't that well trained in firearm use in the US (SWAT excepted). There are plenty of examples I've seen on the Police Camera Action type TV shows of armed US police panicking and loosing off rounds in the general direction of a suspect. Sometimes hitting bystanders and even their own colleagues. This is also backed up by a couple of friends who live in the US.
Wasn't there a case in the US recently about some bystanders being hit by someone who was trying to shoot a gunman and missed?

LGJM is probably right when he talks about US burglars being more likely to be armed than UK ones, but I'd suggest that situation has arisen due to the likelihood of both police and homeowners being armed. Something which is highly unlikely in the UK. If I was a burglar in the UK, I'd do just as Jerry's burglar had. A snatch and run. If I was a burglar in the US I'd make sure I was armed and immediately targeted and neutralized the homeowner. Either by threatening them and tying them up or shooting them if they offered resistance. Then I'd take everything I could.

Re: Armed teachers : Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:19 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

Well the issue is that they genuinely believe it is their right to own firearms. Whatever you or I or anyone else thinks about owning guns they see it as their right. If I tried to take away your right to vote or your right for you to have a fair trial I imagine you would turn nasty quickly too.

I believe it is my right to beat small children. Do you have children? I wish to punch them in the face. Pass them this way, it's my right.

Re: Armed teachers : Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:31 pm  

Him wrote:

I believe it is my right to beat small children. Do you have children? I wish to punch them in the face. Pass them this way, it's my right.

And if you believe you have that right you won't be arrested after punching a kid in the face, you will be detained and sectioned under the mental health act.

The reason that Americans believe they have a right to bear arms is because they do have the right, courtesy of the second amendment of the US constitution.

There are plenty of "Him's" in the USA who think that have the right to be stupid like you do. I witnessed a conversation where a big, bald Him called Earl insisted that when he went to Florida he was perfectly within his rights to travel with a gun under the passenger seat. Two concealed carry licence owners told him that was against the law and he'd be arrested for doing that.

My friend was one of those people. He knew most (if not all) of the responsibilities of carrying a gun and took it very seriously. He is completely against idiots who think they have the right to do stupid things just because of a vague understanding of the constitution.

Re: Armed teachers : Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:52 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

There are plenty of "Him's" in the USA who think that have the right to be stupid like you do. I witnessed a conversation where a big, bald Him called Earl insisted that when he went to Florida he was perfectly within his rights to travel with a gun under the passenger seat. Two concealed carry licence owners told him that was against the law and he'd be arrested for doing that.

My friend was one of those people. He knew most (if not all) of the responsibilities of carrying a gun and took it very seriously. He is completely against idiots who think they have the right to do stupid things just because of a vague understanding of the constitution.

This is where the whole gun ownership thing starts to crumble like a sandcastle in heavy rain, American citizens have the basic constitutional right to bear arms but my understanding is that that right was granted 200+ years ago when large areas of that country only had the vaguest of law enforcement and it was literally down to the individual citizen to enforce state and federal law, as they saw fit - its possible to argue that the same situation does not exist now and that citizens should be prepared to hand over law and order entirely to their police forces in which case guns would have to be much more strictly controlled, its possible to try and argue that, but not practical because no individual wants to be the first one to give up their weapons.

As well as the Utah artist I also correspond from time to time with a writer who lives in California, she was a pilot in the air force and is still a reservist and is what could fairly be described as a gun-a-holic but like your friend is full of advice to others via a gun ownership blog of the responsibilities of keeping guns - and there are a lot of people like them who do take it all very seriously, swapping advice on maintaining their weapons, on choosing them in the first place, and on what are the best ways to practice using them, there is no criticism of the constitution with these people and the amendment to bear arms will never be repealed, America will become a communist state before they give up their second amendment and their attitude towards state and federal control has not changed much in the 200+ years since the constitution was drawn.
`
Of course when a high school shooting occurs they all shuffle around shaking their heads and muttering stuff about it being the person that did the shooting and not the gun, but still the argument about the right to own guns is absolute and trying to compare the situation in this country with theirs is like comparing chalk with cheese and is as pointless and unproductive as that would be.

Re: Armed teachers : Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:48 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

And if you believe you have that right you won't be arrested after punching a kid in the face, you will be detained and sectioned under the mental health act.

The reason that Americans believe they have a right to bear arms is because they do have the right, courtesy of the second amendment of the US constitution.

There are plenty of "Him's" in the USA who think that have the right to be stupid like you do. I witnessed a conversation where a big, bald Him called Earl insisted that when he went to Florida he was perfectly within his rights to travel with a gun under the passenger seat. Two concealed carry licence owners told him that was against the law and he'd be arrested for doing that.

My friend was one of those people. He knew most (if not all) of the responsibilities of carrying a gun and took it very seriously. He is completely against idiots who think they have the right to do stupid things just because of a vague understanding of the constitution.

Do they? A well regulated Militia? Hmmmm. I'm not sure George Zimmerman classes as a well regulated militia. Some of the various police forces in the US would barely meet that description.

The fact that you've decided to turn this personal instead of actually countering the point being made is a bit daft. Try actually debating instead of calling people stupid.

Re: Armed teachers : Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:05 pm  

Him wrote:

The fact that you've decided to turn this personal instead of actually countering the point being made is a bit daft. Try actually debating instead of calling people stupid.

Your point was stupid:

Him wrote:

I believe it is my right to beat small children. Do you have children? I wish to punch them in the face. Pass them this way, it's my right.

I countered your stupid point. I said that the people of the US do have the right to bare arms because of their 2nd amendment right.

Re: Armed teachers : Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:46 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

This is where the whole gun ownership thing starts to crumble like a sandcastle in heavy rain, American citizens have the basic constitutional right to bear arms but my understanding is that that right was granted 200+ years ago when large areas of that country only had the vaguest of law enforcement and it was literally down to the individual citizen to enforce state and federal law, as they saw fit - its possible to argue that the same situation does not exist now and that citizens should be prepared to hand over law and order entirely to their police forces in which case guns would have to be much more strictly controlled, its possible to try and argue that, but not practical because no individual wants to be the first one to give up their weapons.

And the argument from the NRA will be that criminals won't give up the illegal weapons that they have. So law abiding citizens would give up their guns and the only people to keep their guns will be criminals.

As well as the Utah artist I also correspond from time to time with a writer who lives in California, she was a pilot in the air force and is still a reservist and is what could fairly be described as a gun-a-holic but like your friend is full of advice to others via a gun ownership blog of the responsibilities of keeping guns - and there are a lot of people like them who do take it all very seriously, swapping advice on maintaining their weapons, on choosing them in the first place, and on what are the best ways to practice using them, there is no criticism of the constitution with these people and the amendment to bear arms will never be repealed, America will become a communist state before they give up their second amendment and their attitude towards state and federal control has not changed much in the 200+ years since the constitution was drawn.

"Out of my cold, dead hands" is pretty much the only way that the majority of people would let go of their guns.

IMO they are retarded to be so in love with their guns. I can understand a parent saying they would give their lives to defend their children. I don't understand for a second how the issue of gun ownership is given an almost equal standing.

Of course when a high school shooting occurs they all shuffle around shaking their heads and muttering stuff about it being the person that did the shooting and not the gun, but still the argument about the right to own guns is absolute and trying to compare the situation in this country with theirs is like comparing chalk with cheese and is as pointless and unproductive as that would be.

On another thread I said that after Newtown my friend was pretty much, "I don't care what Obama does now. They can do what they want."

But this feeling lasts only weeks. After that feeling is gone it's back to pretty much the default position of never giving an inch. And by the time the politicians got round to putting forward their suggestions to combat gun crime it ends up as nothing more than a waste of paper. A set of soundbites that make it sound like they are doing something but both sides know nothing has changed.

Re: Armed teachers : Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:52 pm  

As no American needs an assault rifle, and as they can't even go as far as prohibiting them, all the talk is a ware of time.

In truth, there are now just so many guns in America already, that any talk of a ban would be naive to be polite. It's the proverbial genie out of bottle scenario, can't be done.

Re: Armed teachers : Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:00 pm  

You've got to admire American free enterprise: http://tinyurl.com/knjmkxw Particularly like the potential use of the cushions as a bulletproof shield... After quite a few visits to the US I have to admit that their saying "An armed society is a polite society" has some credence. Especially when driving, road rage is very rare and avoiding eye contact is de rigeur. The right to bear arms is an article of faith to many Americans, going back to the Revolution, and they aren't going to be reasoned out of it. I suggested, tongue in cheek, on a US ethics discussion list that were they to arm teachers then maybe the logical next step could be to arm the children. The first vitriolic response cited an occasion when armed children acquitted themselves well in the War of Independence and that they would be happy to do the same today. Great country, some puzzling people. They think the same of us.

You've got to admire American free enterprise: http://tinyurl.com/knjmkxw Particularly like the potential use of the cushions as a bulletproof shield... After quite a few visits to the US I have to admit that their saying "An armed society is a polite society" has some credence. Especially when driving, road rage is very rare and avoiding eye contact is de rigeur. The right to bear arms is an article of faith to many Americans, going back to the Revolution, and they aren't going to be reasoned out of it. I suggested, tongue in cheek, on a US ethics discussion list that were they to arm teachers then maybe the logical next step could be to arm the children. The first vitriolic response cited an occasion when armed children acquitted themselves well in the War of Independence and that they would be happy to do the same today. Great country, some puzzling people. They think the same of us.