[DaveO]

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:08 am  

LeighGionaire wrote: However it was only a stop gap because now we are seeing a Sovereign Debt crisis. All these Austerity measures are hurting the average man financially but we aren't even halting the deficit, never mind actually paying off any Government debt! So if governments were the last resort to save the system what will happen when they eventually go bust and this whole global ponzi scheme collapses? Well here are a couple of links from rather different sources that explain why running a deficit, permanently, isn't a bad thing. http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/18/why-you-should-love-government-deficits/ http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/08/running-a-permanent-fiscal-deficit/ The first one gives a very simplistic view of the economics but is useful in illustrating the point of the effect spending v austerity. The second is a more sophisticated look at why running a deficit, permanently, is normal (it's what we in the UK have done for literally decades under all governments). The interesting question is what is our current government up to baring the above in mind? Is it trying to balance the books and in so doing is making everyone (well the majority) worse off when it should be doing things differently? The idea 0.7% growth vindicates the austerity approach doesn't wash with me. It seems we have had a period where government borrowing was very cheap so had it borrowed for growth promoting investment then as mentioned by the second article the debt becomes self financing. Unfortunately the government has been borrowing at very high levels not to invest but to fund austerity and now the interest rates are increasing the cost of government borrowing is going up. To borrow at the levels it does not for investment purposes is madness.

LeighGionaire wrote: However it was only a stop gap because now we are seeing a Sovereign Debt crisis. All these Austerity measures are hurting the average man financially but we aren't even halting the deficit, never mind actually paying off any Government debt! So if governments were the last resort to save the system what will happen when they eventually go bust and this whole global ponzi scheme collapses? Well here are a couple of links from rather different sources that explain why running a deficit, permanently, isn't a bad thing. http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/18/why-you-should-love-government-deficits/ http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/08/running-a-permanent-fiscal-deficit/ The first one gives a very simplistic view of the economics but is useful in illustrating the point of the effect spending v austerity. The second is a more sophisticated look at why running a deficit, permanently, is normal (it's what we in the UK have done for literally decades under all governments). The interesting question is what is our current government up to baring the above in mind? Is it trying to balance the books and in so doing is making everyone (well the majority) worse off when it should be doing things differently? The idea 0.7% growth vindicates the austerity approach doesn't wash with me. It seems we have had a period where government borrowing was very cheap so had it borrowed for growth promoting investment then as mentioned by the second article the debt becomes self financing. Unfortunately the government has been borrowing at very high levels not to invest but to fund austerity and now the interest rates are increasing the cost of government borrowing is going up. To borrow at the levels it does not for investment purposes is madness.

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:18 am  

DaveO wrote:

...
The idea 0.7% growth vindicates the austerity approach doesn't wash with me. It seems we have had a period where government borrowing was very cheap so had it borrowed for growth promoting investment then as mentioned by the second article the debt becomes self financing. Unfortunately the government has been borrowing at very high levels not to invest but to fund austerity and now the interest rates are increasing the cost of government borrowing is going up. To borrow at the levels it does not for investment purposes is madness.

Spot on.
Debt is rising fast with no investment, no stimulus, no extra jobs, no growth, absolutely nothing to show for it.
But still they bang on about borrowing being bad, despite increasing it vastly.

Apparently it's OK to borrow and increase debt to fund austerity but not OK to borrow, say, the same amount to boost the economy.

And still the deficit is slow to come down.
Three years ago, they were going to eliminate the deficit in five years, by 2015.
Two years ago, they were going to eliminate the deficit in five years, by 2016.
Last year, they were going to eliminate the deficit in five years, by 2017.
Now, they are going to eliminate the deficit in five years, by 2018.

Is it working?

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:05 pm  

I think the penny has just dropped...

Isn't the owner of Wonga one of the major contributors to the Conservative Party ?

Surely they wouldn't take borrowing advice from them would they ?

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:16 pm  

JerryChicken wrote: I think the penny has just dropped... Isn't the owner of Wonga one of the major contributors to the Conservative Party ? Surely they wouldn't take borrowing advice from them would they ? Adrian Beecroft is a venture capitalist whose business links include Wonga. He is a donor to the Conservative Party – as are the direct owners of Wonga. Beecroft has coughed up around £500,000 – and got to pen a policy document. In essence, calling for it to be made easier to sack people: he claimed that 'a few' people getting sacked simply because their bosses didn't like them would be a price worth paying for 'economic growth'. Article here about how he has been involved himself in sacking people. Which has obviously done the economy proud.

JerryChicken wrote: I think the penny has just dropped... Isn't the owner of Wonga one of the major contributors to the Conservative Party ? Surely they wouldn't take borrowing advice from them would they ? Adrian Beecroft is a venture capitalist whose business links include Wonga. He is a donor to the Conservative Party – as are the direct owners of Wonga. Beecroft has coughed up around £500,000 – and got to pen a policy document. In essence, calling for it to be made easier to sack people: he claimed that 'a few' people getting sacked simply because their bosses didn't like them would be a price worth paying for 'economic growth'. Article here about how he has been involved himself in sacking people. Which has obviously done the economy proud.

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:29 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Spot on.
Debt is rising fast with no investment, no stimulus, no extra jobs, no growth, absolutely nothing to show for it.
But still they bang on about borrowing being bad, despite increasing it vastly.

Apparently it's OK to borrow and increase debt to fund austerity but not OK to borrow, say, the same amount to boost the economy.

And still the deficit is slow to come down.
Three years ago, they were going to eliminate the deficit in five years, by 2015.
Two years ago, they were going to eliminate the deficit in five years, by 2016.
Last year, they were going to eliminate the deficit in five years, by 2017.
Now, they are going to eliminate the deficit in five years, by 2018.

Is it working?

Exactly. There's good borrowing and bad borrowing.

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:08 am  

DaveO wrote: Well here are a couple of links from rather different sources that explain why running a deficit, permanently, isn't a bad thing. http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/18/why-you-should-love-government-deficits/ http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/08/running-a-permanent-fiscal-deficit/ The first one gives a very simplistic view of the economics but is useful in illustrating the point of the effect spending v austerity. The second is a more sophisticated look at why running a deficit, permanently, is normal (it's what we in the UK have done for literally decades under all governments). The interesting question is what is our current government up to baring the above in mind? Is it trying to balance the books and in so doing is making everyone (well the majority) worse off when it should be doing things differently? The idea 0.7% growth vindicates the austerity approach doesn't wash with me. It seems we have had a period where government borrowing was very cheap so had it borrowed for growth promoting investment then as mentioned by the second article the debt becomes self financing. Unfortunately the government has been borrowing at very high levels not to invest but to fund austerity and now the interest rates are increasing the cost of government borrowing is going up. To borrow at the levels it does not for investment purposes is madness. The links you provide kind of back up my claims that under the current debt based money system somebody somewhere always has to be going into further debt to keep the whole system functioning. If new money has to be continually spent into the economy why doesn't a government just create this new money themselves instead of borrowing debt based credit money from banks at interest when the same banks create this credit out if thin air?

DaveO wrote: Well here are a couple of links from rather different sources that explain why running a deficit, permanently, isn't a bad thing. http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/18/why-you-should-love-government-deficits/ http://www.social-europe.eu/2010/08/running-a-permanent-fiscal-deficit/ The first one gives a very simplistic view of the economics but is useful in illustrating the point of the effect spending v austerity. The second is a more sophisticated look at why running a deficit, permanently, is normal (it's what we in the UK have done for literally decades under all governments). The interesting question is what is our current government up to baring the above in mind? Is it trying to balance the books and in so doing is making everyone (well the majority) worse off when it should be doing things differently? The idea 0.7% growth vindicates the austerity approach doesn't wash with me. It seems we have had a period where government borrowing was very cheap so had it borrowed for growth promoting investment then as mentioned by the second article the debt becomes self financing. Unfortunately the government has been borrowing at very high levels not to invest but to fund austerity and now the interest rates are increasing the cost of government borrowing is going up. To borrow at the levels it does not for investment purposes is madness. The links you provide kind of back up my claims that under the current debt based money system somebody somewhere always has to be going into further debt to keep the whole system functioning. If new money has to be continually spent into the economy why doesn't a government just create this new money themselves instead of borrowing debt based credit money from banks at interest when the same banks create this credit out if thin air?

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:19 am  

In answer to my original question I personally think it will be chaos when the debt bubble finally collapses just like Brown envisioned if the quotes ascribed to him are true.

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:59 pm  

Mintball wrote: Adrian Beecroft is a venture capitalist whose business links include Wonga. He is a donor to the Conservative Party – as are the direct owners of Wonga. Beecroft has coughed up around £500,000 – and got to pen a policy document. In essence, calling for it to be made easier to sack people: he claimed that 'a few' people getting sacked simply because their bosses didn't like them would be a price worth paying for 'economic growth'. Article here about how he has been involved himself in sacking people. Which has obviously done the economy proud. And the difference between the influence his type have on Tory policy and the influence the unions have on Labour policy is what? It is just you find the policies of the right less palatable - the scope of influence is no different, they pay their monies and they expect something in return.

Mintball wrote: Adrian Beecroft is a venture capitalist whose business links include Wonga. He is a donor to the Conservative Party – as are the direct owners of Wonga. Beecroft has coughed up around £500,000 – and got to pen a policy document. In essence, calling for it to be made easier to sack people: he claimed that 'a few' people getting sacked simply because their bosses didn't like them would be a price worth paying for 'economic growth'. Article here about how he has been involved himself in sacking people. Which has obviously done the economy proud. And the difference between the influence his type have on Tory policy and the influence the unions have on Labour policy is what? It is just you find the policies of the right less palatable - the scope of influence is no different, they pay their monies and they expect something in return.

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:05 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

And the difference between the influence his type have on Tory policy and the influence the unions have on Labour policy is what? ...

Rather large.

Just to begin with, the Labour Party was created by the trades unions. It's a little bit of history that seems to be forgotten on occasions, including by some in the (particularly) Parliamentary Labour Party.

I am not aware of the Conservative Party having been founded by loans sharks or, indeed, by multi-national and trans-national business (which are new developments).

Further: trades unions are democratic organisations that have accountable leaderships. For instance, trade union members can elect – and unelect – the leaders of trade unions. In many cases (UNISON is a prime example) members have to opt in to any trade union donation. It is not automatic.

I suggest that few consumers have much choice in whether, say, a percentage of their buy in a supermarket then goes to any political party.

So, democracy, accountability – those little matters are quite different.

Re: What Will Happen When The Pyramid Of Debt Collapses? : Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:29 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

And the difference between the influence his type have on Tory policy and the influence the unions have on Labour policy is what? ...

Oooh ... let me try this one ... is it that the former want to sack people without giving a reason and the latter say you should have a bloody good reason?