Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:58 am  

I'd like to add the small aside that having attended a couple of court cases from the public gallery (no serious crimes), my respect for the way judges appeared to use common sense in applying benchmarks to sentencing was greatly increased.

The press will report the sensational aspects of a crime and the sentence, but I've seen a judge make every possible effort to get someone a non-custodial sentence in one case, where it did seem clear that there was genuine remorse and intent to turn things around on behalf of the defendant, and another where the same judge saw a serial offender with attitude and pushed his sentence towards the maximum.

Not saying they get it right in every case, but I think a lot of judges are far more connected to the "real world" than most people give them credit for - especially the nasty side of life, which they undoubtedly see a lot more of than most.

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:16 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

Not saying they get it right in every case, but I think a lot of judges are far more connected to the "real world" than most people give them credit for - especially the nasty side of life, which they undoubtedly see a lot more of than most.

Far from me to doubt your earnest opinion but have you managed to run this theory through with Sal for official confirmation?

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:19 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Which HM Government opted out of for several sectors of public employee - NHS doctors being one such example.

Fair play.
Must have been after 2010?

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:53 am  

WIZEB wrote:

Fair play.
Must have been after 2010?

Nooooo - long time before then, when it was first introduced ten/fifteen years ago ?

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:24 am  

JerryChicken wrote: Nooooo - long time before then, when it was first introduced ten/fifteen years ago ? ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10198367/EU-review-Doctors-get-trained-in-their-free-time-because-of-working-time-rules.html

JerryChicken wrote: Nooooo - long time before then, when it was first introduced ten/fifteen years ago ? ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10198367/EU-review-Doctors-get-trained-in-their-free-time-because-of-working-time-rules.html

[Durham Giant]

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:58 am  

Chris28 wrote:

Its terrible when all those machines get turned off on Saturday and Sunday isnt it? I'm surprised the mortuaries can cope.

Actually there is a very strong correlation between death rates and weekends precisely because there is a lack of more experienced staff on at the weekend.

Many consultants work on a rolling rota at weekends but they cover a multitude of wards.
So one week you will have a brain specialist on duty, the following week a cardiac consultant. The problem is that there specialisms are not always the ones that are needed at a particular time.

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:00 am  

WIZEB wrote: ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10198367/EU-review-Doctors-get-trained-in-their-free-time-because-of-working-time-rules.html EU W/Time regulations introduced 1998 and the software that we sell was capable of monitoring the rolling period of 17 weeks (or any term) at that time too - since then I have only ever been asked once to set it up for a client and as far as I am aware none of our thousands of clients have ever been reviewed, or at least they have never asked us how to provide the evidence necessary to prove they are complying. Regulations that allow you to opt out = fekkin useless regulations.

WIZEB wrote: ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10198367/EU-review-Doctors-get-trained-in-their-free-time-because-of-working-time-rules.html EU W/Time regulations introduced 1998 and the software that we sell was capable of monitoring the rolling period of 17 weeks (or any term) at that time too - since then I have only ever been asked once to set it up for a client and as far as I am aware none of our thousands of clients have ever been reviewed, or at least they have never asked us how to provide the evidence necessary to prove they are complying. Regulations that allow you to opt out = fekkin useless regulations.

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:28 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

EU W/Time regulations introduced 1998 and the software that we sell was capable of monitoring the rolling period of 17 weeks (or any term) at that time too - since then I have only ever been asked once to set it up for a client and as far as I am aware none of our thousands of clients have ever been reviewed, or at least they have never asked us how to provide the evidence necessary to prove they are complying.

Regulations that allow you to opt out = fekkin useless regulations.

Ok.
So were both right.

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:55 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

Actually there is a very strong correlation between death rates and weekends precisely because there is a lack of more experienced staff on at the weekend.

Many consultants work on a rolling rota at weekends but they cover a multitude of wards.
So one week you will have a brain specialist on duty, the following week a cardiac consultant. The problem is that there specialisms are not always the ones that are needed at a particular time.

It was the implication that machinery stands idle at the weekend I was taking issue with. I've heard about the correlation you mention and can understand it tbh but it was the other bit of the post I was meaning

Re: British justice - Where is consistency and common sense? : Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:06 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote: One doesn't need to spend a load more money to increase the efficiency of the system. Justice, be it in any of the Courts can be dispensed 7 days a week, in buildings which the infra structure is already costed and budgeted for. A simple re-write of Contracts would see those Staff, not already working weekends in maintenance etc, put on a rolling week rota of 5 days from 7. If British Industry can adopt and make this system work, why not the legal Profession? The LEGAL PROFESSION? Are you really that ignorant? Solicitors already provide 24/7/365 cover for police stations and whenever their clients are up, they are represented. I am sure there would be no problem with night courts IF those working in them got paid accordingly. But that won't happen. As Grayling and his incompetent ideologues are slashing costs and pay by the million. There is zero chance of them paying more money. I simply don't understand why you would think that processing more cases using more hours wouldn't cost more money. Of course it would. British Industry can work 24/7 but they can charge what they like for it. You don't want to pay, the plumber / mechanic / whatever won't turn out. Crime isn't like that - most can't afford to pay and unless legal aid does, then overall it simply will not happen. And as you know if you follow the system at all, where it is at the moment is barristers and solicitors resorting to strike action. Doesn't sound like a governemnt that's likely to be throwing any more money into the pot to me. You may well be right, in that there is not a backlog in the Criminal Court at the moment, but not everyone takes such a sanguine view for the future. Sorry, but an article by a very well-heeled City firm about tax faud cases really is utterly irrelevant to this discussion! BrisbaneRhino wrote: … Not saying they get it right in every case, but I think a lot of judges are far more connected to the "real world" than most people give them credit for - especially the nasty side of life, which they undoubtedly see a lot more of than most. Indeed. In fact, one of the most ridiculous criticisms you could level against the judges is that they “don’t live in the real world”. They spend all day hearing about, dealing with, analysing, reading reports on the most troubled, the worst offending, the mentally challenged, the poor and desperate,the violent, the professional criminals and in a lot of cases the dregs of society, case after case after case. Ironically, they live in (and have to confront) the “real world” about a thousand times more than most of us.

rumpelstiltskin wrote: One doesn't need to spend a load more money to increase the efficiency of the system. Justice, be it in any of the Courts can be dispensed 7 days a week, in buildings which the infra structure is already costed and budgeted for. A simple re-write of Contracts would see those Staff, not already working weekends in maintenance etc, put on a rolling week rota of 5 days from 7. If British Industry can adopt and make this system work, why not the legal Profession? The LEGAL PROFESSION? Are you really that ignorant? Solicitors already provide 24/7/365 cover for police stations and whenever their clients are up, they are represented. I am sure there would be no problem with night courts IF those working in them got paid accordingly. But that won't happen. As Grayling and his incompetent ideologues are slashing costs and pay by the million. There is zero chance of them paying more money. I simply don't understand why you would think that processing more cases using more hours wouldn't cost more money. Of course it would. British Industry can work 24/7 but they can charge what they like for it. You don't want to pay, the plumber / mechanic / whatever won't turn out. Crime isn't like that - most can't afford to pay and unless legal aid does, then overall it simply will not happen. And as you know if you follow the system at all, where it is at the moment is barristers and solicitors resorting to strike action. Doesn't sound like a governemnt that's likely to be throwing any more money into the pot to me. You may well be right, in that there is not a backlog in the Criminal Court at the moment, but not everyone takes such a sanguine view for the future. Sorry, but an article by a very well-heeled City firm about tax faud cases really is utterly irrelevant to this discussion! BrisbaneRhino wrote: … Not saying they get it right in every case, but I think a lot of judges are far more connected to the "real world" than most people give them credit for - especially the nasty side of life, which they undoubtedly see a lot more of than most. Indeed. In fact, one of the most ridiculous criticisms you could level against the judges is that they “don’t live in the real world”. They spend all day hearing about, dealing with, analysing, reading reports on the most troubled, the worst offending, the mentally challenged, the poor and desperate,the violent, the professional criminals and in a lot of cases the dregs of society, case after case after case. Ironically, they live in (and have to confront) the “real world” about a thousand times more than most of us.